Episode #9: Nika Kabiri

Hugo: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to, uh, the ninth episode of the tracking happiness podcast. Um, uh, a show about mental health struggles, uh, overcoming them, or at least discussing them. And hopefully in the end, uh, trying to de stigmatize talking about mental health struggles. Um, and I’m not doing that alone. I’m doing that with amazing guests.

And today I’ve got Nika Kabiri with me. I hope that’s pronounced properly.

Nika: You said it right.

Hugo: yes, always feels good. Well,

hi, Nika, how are you doing?

Nika: Good. I’m doing really, really well.

Hugo: Nice.

Nika: day. Everything’s great. No complaints.

Hugo: So I just had a sneak peek at your, well, this is based off an interview we did on trackinghappiness. com that was published over, well, well over a year ago. Um, but I, I just sneaked in there and I saw that you were from Colorado, the US. [00:01:00] Is that still the case?

Nika: It’s still the case. I live in a tiny town in the mountains of Colorado. Um, close to skiing, close to hiking. It’s just beautiful out here. Um, it’s just one of those things I’ve always wanted to do. And I finally got to do it. So,

Hugo: So it sounds like you didn’t get, well, you grew up longing for those mountains and the forests and the wildlife.

Nika: Yeah. Yeah,

Hugo: So, so,

Nika: up in Texas.

So

Hugo: ah, okay.

Well, Texas, that’s, that’s, that’s not too bad. Is it?

Nika: no, it’s not too bad, but for someone who loves outdoor, outdoor activities

like

Hugo: Uh huh.

Nika: and skiing, it’s a little easier

when

Hugo: Oh yeah.

I, I feel like Mexico, Mexico, Texas. I went straight to Mexico. I don’t know why. I don’t know why I did that. But, uh, Texas, well, when I envisioned Texas in my head, all I see is stretches of grass with those bull horns, like those bull [00:02:00] cows, like the one with the horns. Um, and with the oil, like the, the oil pumps, the one that they go like suck up the oil off the ground.

Oh

Nika: a lot about Texas that’s really, um, diverse and urban and, you know, great, great food, great art, you know,

there’s lots of

Hugo: yeah.

Nika: you wouldn’t expect. Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah.

But then in the end she said, ah, screw it. I’m just going to move a couple of states over into the mountains. Cool. So, uh, yeah, I’m always a bit jealous. Like this was discussed on a previous podcast as well. It was someone from, I forgot, like somewhere on Northeast region, like the New England region, like lush forests, uh, in a log cabin, you know?

And I’m like, Oh my Lord, that sounds brilliant. I’m from, I’m from the Netherlands, which is, um, very densely populated. It has its perks. But wildlife or nature or the serenity of [00:03:00] the forest, that’s, that’s a bit hard to find some days. Um,

Nika: like there is, there’s research that suggests that being in nature, being around green greenery does lift your, your mood.

Hugo: yep,

Nika: yeah,

Hugo: yep.

Nika: you try to get out of town once in a while and see that.

Hugo: Well, yeah, yeah, I try to as much as possible, to be, to be fair. Yeah, and there’s still beautiful parts in the Netherlands. But, um, you have to drive a bit to, to get there, yeah, to, to leave the populated areas behind and enjoy the calmness. Yeah.

Nika: right.

Hugo: Um, speaking of happiness,

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: yeah, the tracking happiness podcast.

Um, so let me just start off with a very simple question. Um, well, Nika, who are you? Um, where are you from? Well, we covered that. Um, what do you do and how are you doing?

Nika: Yeah. So, um, I’m a decision scientist, [00:04:00] which means that I, um, study, uh, decisions in the sense of how they should be made, like really, um, helping and I, and, and I’m also also a consultant. So I help businesses and individuals make better decisions by better assessing risk. better analyzing tradeoffs, um, by understanding how to make choices that lead to, you know, specific outcomes. So that’s the should, like how we should do it.

And then

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: you know, really understanding why we don’t do it. that’s where behavioral economics comes in and the study of,

Hugo: Oh, yeah.

Nika: psychology and all those biases that we make and social influences that lead us on the wrong path. So I kind of study all of that. And help people, um, make the choices that will get them to a better place. Um, and I

Hugo: That’s so interesting.

Nika: yeah. So, and I do, and I do this mostly remotely in Colorado,

although

Hugo: Sorry. Sorry. I was [00:05:00] a little freaked out because fireworks went off on your screen when you did a thumbs up. It’s the first time I saw it. Um, like the listeners won’t get to see this, but there were suddenly fireworks in my screen because you did like a thumbs up sign. That was, that was amazing. First time.

We’re nine episodes in and this is, I’m only now just seeing this. It doesn’t work now, but oh my God.

Nika: was

Hugo: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Um, I will. I, all right. I’ll shut my mouth.

Nika: No, that’s okay. Um, you also asked how I’m doing

and

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: I’m doing really, really well. Like I love where I live. I love my work. I have a great partner, uh, love sharing my life with him. Great pets, great home, far cry from where I was, you know, 30 years ago.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: early twenties,

um,

Hugo: huh.

Nika: struggling with, um, mental health issues and just experiences [00:06:00] that seem like completely, like a completely other person than who I am right now.

Hugo: Yeah. I’ve got so many questions,

Nika: Okay.

Hugo: but I just want to start off easily. Um, what kind of pets do you have?

Nika: I have a cat named Jasper

and

Hugo: Okay.

Nika: a dog named Cooper.

Uh,

Hugo: Jasper National Park in the Rocky Mountains? Or Jasper as in Jasper the Ghost?

Nika: Oh, that’s funny. I don’t really know. I think he, I think my cat is like every, every name, everything named Jasper should probably be named after my cat is how I feel about

my cat.

Hugo: It

goes that way. Okay, yeah.

Nika: Yeah. That’s the direction that it’ll go.

Hugo: The beautiful national park in Canada was named after your cat. Of course.

Nika: Of course. Obviously.

Hugo: Cool. Wow. Nice. Um, okay. Uh, easy. That was the easy question. Now a little bit more difficult question. So you, you kind of, [00:07:00] uh, uh, spoiled it a little bit in your, in your story. But, um, 30 years ago, you weren’t so you weren’t as happy as you are now,

uh, which is, which is the story, um, that I would like to discuss here.

Um, so yeah, can you, can you tell me a little bit about that? Okay.

Nika: it is so, I’m so distant from it now that it, it doesn’t really even bring up. Any kind of negative feelings to talk about anymore. It’s, feel so completely through it,

Hugo: Even though like I remember reading your story and I was like, Oh wow, this, this is really, really serious stuff.

Nika: it felt that way. And looking back, it seemed that way. I didn’t, didn’t think I would actually live past 30. I was that suicidal.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: And, uh, very, uh, just depressed, like in every possible way, um, really function, [00:08:00] um, had really bad anxiety, had really terrible panic attacks couldn’t quite get it under control.

I was also self harming, which back then, you know, nobody talked about. It was very stigmatized. I had a lot of shame around that.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: understand why I was doing all that. So like most people. went to therapy because that was, that is like the solution,

the thing

Hugo: Yeah.

So, so, so, but what, what caused that? What caused the, the anxiety and the depression and the self harm? Is there, is that a single reason?

Nika: I don’t, so that’s a really, that is a harder question to answer. Not because it’s emotionally, um, triggering. It’s hard to answer because I really am not certain.

Hugo: Okay.

Nika: I think that’s one of my challenges with therapy is that a lot of it is trying to understand why you’ve got here.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: that really relies on. Remembering a lot about your childhood

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Nika: [00:09:00] as a social scientist, I know like decision science research that memories are not really great at all.

Like

Hugo: They’re not perfect.

Nika: They’re not, they’re not even close to perfect. They’re

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: less accurate than we. Then we even can imagine.

Hugo: So, so is there like a, a, a a range or like, you, you, it’s, it’s, I’ve got a puzzle in my head now and, uh, in a perfect scenario, you’ve got all the pieces to, to complete this puzzle with therapy, but then your, yours is missing a couple of pieces, but are there still a couple of pieces that, that, you know, are like, Hey, this, this contributed to the struggles that I was experiencing?

Um.

Nika: well, so I know that there were certain things like certain experiences I had as a, as a child. Um, on the one hand, I’m not sure how much of a role they played because there are a lot of experiences I don’t remember. Um, I think we remember emotionally charged things, but I mean, according to research, things that aren’t emotionally charged, we tend to like [00:10:00] remember less and they might have had just as much to do with why I Coped with problems the way I did, or I handled things the way that I

did.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: Um, suffice it to say our childhoods do forge us. Uh, they, they mold us into being the people we are, into, into feeling the way we do and making the decisions that we make. But I don’t know how. relevant it is. Like for me to talk about, you know, specifics because those specifics weren’t even part of my, um, what I feel like was my true recovery. Um, I think trying to tell stories about our past is a very natural thing to

do.

Hugo: Oh yeah, yeah.

Nika: we try to tell stories about everything,

like why

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: happen? All our brains go crazy

telling

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: right?

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: um, you know, why did I lose my job? All these crazy, not crazy isn’t insane, but we just come up with these

stories

Hugo: Yeah. These narratives to support what we see around us and fill in the [00:11:00] gaps sort of.

Nika: And, you know, behavioral economics research has been very clear on the fact that this is a natural thing to

do

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: but to the extent to where we see connections between things even when they don’t exist

Hugo: Is that like, like, like when we were first cavemen and we saw like, we heard a little branch in the back of our heads and we’re like, what’s that? You know, and even though we didn’t see anything, we’re like, Oh, that should be, that must be a tiger. Let’s run from it anyway.

Nika: Right. Maybe. I mean, that’s, I think of it more like, well, It hasn’t rained in, you know, months,

and

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: water, and we must sacrifice virgins

now,

Hugo: Oh

Nika: why, the reason why it hasn’t rained is because the sky god is angry, and

Hugo: yeah.

Nika: it’s very clear these days, like, you don’t need to sacrifice anyone. Um, the rain is going to do what it’s going to do because we have science to explain

that, right?

Hugo: Most people are, are, uh, are in that belief.

Nika: yeah, most people,

right?

Hugo: They’ve caught up.[00:12:00]

Nika: that’s, and let’s assume that our listeners are those

people,

Hugo: yeah. I hope so. I hope So

Nika: right. I just, and I’m not saying that therapy doesn’t, um, answers as to why. I just mean to say that knowing that our brains are so quick to come up with explanations for things that they are so quick to draw conclusions and see connections between things that really aren’t connected, and that we’re also very susceptible. this is documented by research. believe something is true, if it just makes sense on the surface,

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Nika: well, I’m probably this way because my father or mother never hugged me. Right. Like maybe it sounds right. Makes sense.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: as a scientist, there are so many other variables that can contribute to your state of mind right

now.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: a lot of them you don’t remember. So I think recognizing that was the first step of my journey. Like, why am I? Going in the past all the [00:13:00] time. Why am I asking why I got here? Because in order to get to where I want to go, I just need to make the right decisions.

Hugo: You don’t need to fix the puzzle. You don’t need to solve it. You just need to move on. And I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: I mean, other people may feel differently, but my, my journey, the more I tried to solve the puzzles, the more I tried to come up with why, the more I got mired in this depression and the anxiety and the more I felt the pain. Ill because was labeled as having, you know, these diagnoses, everything.

I mean, at one point they even thought I was potentially schizophrenic, which is ludicrous to me because I have no, no symptoms of schizophrenia. Right. Um, but all the,

and

Hugo: It’s, it’s like trying to find a narrative that explains what’s happening.

Yeah.

Nika: And

Hugo: So, so, so Tara therapy didn’t help you. Is that a, is that a big stretch to say that? That

Nika: to certain things. [00:14:00] Therapy, um, gave me permission to, uh, take, to, to, to be better. The actual practice of therapy not make me better.

Hugo: that’s so interesting because, um,

yeah.

Nika: I don’t know how typical I am. I don’t know how many people would, would feel the same way I would suspect. I mean, therapy is such a, it’s valued so much

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: it’s kind of rare to hear people say it’s not really

helpful,

Hugo: Oh, exactly. Yeah.

Nika: be honest,

Hugo: Yeah. No, I so appreciate that perspective. Um, so, so suicidal ideation is one of the things that I, I interview people about and it’s such a, such a heavy topic. Um,

Nika: It is.

Hugo: and the thing that helps most people overcome suicidal ideation is therapy, or at least in my like small sample size. So it’s not [00:15:00] scientifically significant, but, um,

But,

Nika: let me put it this way. The, one point I did, and I don’t, I don’t mean to be triggering, but I did put a loaded gun to my head.

Hugo: oh, my Lord.

Nika: that point had been in and out of therapy for about six or seven years.

Hugo: Wow.

Nika: I had never done that or thought to do that, like that, before therapy.

And I’m not saying therapy caused it by any means. It’s just that I was doing this even though I had

gone

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: a

Hugo: Yeah. So, like, why isn’t this helping me as much as much as it should, like more as in that spiral down, like self doubt and being tough on yourself? Is that, is that it?

Nika: Um, yeah, yeah. I guess, I guess I just had lost faith in it. Like it,

Hugo: I, I just,

I love the way you answer questions. You’re like thinking, is this a yes or no? Well, no, it’s, it’s, I mean, [00:16:00] It’s a bit of both. It’s nuanced. It’s,

Nika: Right.

Hugo: it’s really amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: um, after, you know, being even hospitalized, like checking yourself into a mental hospital, doing everything all the doctors told me to do, taking all the pills they told me to take, reading all the books they told me to read, going to all the group sessions they told me to go to doing everything like the straight A student I was, To go through all of that. And still not get results, but instead feel, uh, stigmatized

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Nika: also, um, kind of, uh, it was almost like there was this expectation that I was mentally ill and that there would be no real future for me. Now, at that time I had graduated from a top tier university in the United States from Rice university.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: going, I was in [00:17:00] law school. Like by all accounts, I should have been set up for a. promising future.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: there was no conversation about that.

It

Hugo: No.

Nika: my illness, my illness, my illness. And just didn’t know how to get to where I knew like to hear where I’m at right now. Like I didn’t know how to get here.

Therapy didn’t tell me how to get here.

Hugo: Wow. So, okay. So what did get you, uh, to where you are now?

Nika: So,

Hugo: So, but this was, this is in your twenties. I think I remember you saying, right? Even though, like, from the outside, you’re successful and, uh, there’s, well, it’s maybe a bit blunt, but there’s no reason why you should be, uh, not not, uh, overcoming your struggles.

But, yeah.

Nika: of

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: valuable. Not just because I was highly educated and I had a lot of promise professionally. It’s just life has so much potential and it’s just kind of a [00:18:00] waste to feel like that what defines you as a person isn’t what you can do, but what you can’t do. Or what you, how ill you are, rather than, know, all the things that you’re possible of, of accomplishing. I just didn’t find in therapy answers to get me past everything. And again, like again, like right now I’m, I had this great career. Like I’ve worked with really great like Amazon and Google and Microsoft.

Um, um, I’ve, you know, Had I’ve great friends. I have a great life. Great partner. I mean, I have no complaints. And to think that I really was on track to kill myself before 30 is just Astonishing to

me.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: realizing that I wanted to go back to [00:19:00] graduate school to study sociology after having completed law school because I didn’t like law school and I really loved my sociology of law classes and I was like, oh, I don’t know, I’ll go to sociology, uh, to this program, get a, you know, a master’s, get a PhD, maybe like, I don’t want to work in the real world. like a stalling technique. Tactic, right? And I love that material. I just loved being a researcher. So I just did what I loved. And I fell into this world where I started to understand how things started to work outside of me, if that makes sense.

Hugo: Well, it does, to be honest. Yeah. Well, even though it didn’t, it sounds like you kind of more or less stumbled over it. Uh, like you found it when you weren’t looking. Uh, that’s, that’s amazing. Yeah.

Nika: and part of learning about, you know, the social world, like learning social psychology, um, learning about, you know, [00:20:00] statistics and the rules of probability and how things kind of work, um, the social construction of reality and the idea that concepts are constructed. Like even the ideas of the idea that, you know, depression is, you know, Kind of a construct.

It’s not something that outside of our, our, um, understanding of it. So, you know, people, we as humans, you know, various professionals in the, in the field look at, you know, these behavioral traits and they put a name on it.

It’s

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: a lot of sense. It makes it easy to communicate about what’s going on.

It makes it easy to understand, to be on the same page about things,

Hugo: Mm hmm.

Nika: that that also leaves it Room for the possibility that, um, that’s not an absolute, you know, guaranteed

truth.

Hugo: There are outliers to any model and to any sort of define definition. Yeah.

Nika: And we can reconstruct what’s what mental illness. I mean, there was a point where homosexuality [00:21:00] was a mental illness

Hugo: Oh, gee. Yeah.

Nika: for that.

So,

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: know, I mean, the fact that this can change over time, it just kind of made me realize, well, maybe I’m not like, maybe I’m not like, A loser or a waste of space or, you know, hopeless or useless or all the things that I felt I was mentally ill. Like maybe I can actually do something, you know, I can actually use this degree to get somewhere. And, and then I fell into this, um, the mentorship of, um, scholars who are the, know, these scholars at the time and, and still are

in what’s

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: choice theory and sociology.

Hugo: So, so, is that like, I’m, I’ve, I’ve read, and this book was mentioned previously too, like, Thinking Fast and Slow by David Kahneman. I’m a, um, the noble, noble, uh, guy. Yeah.

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: is my terrible language. I’m, I’m calling him the noble guy now.

Nika: He

Hugo: And there was a, a

noble guy. [00:22:00] Yeah.

Nika: guy.

Hugo: And, uh, Richard Thaler was he also one with economics and more like, like why we make rationally the wrong decision, even though we’ve got all the information we need, you know, and I’m, I’m acting as if I know as much as you do now, but, but it’s so interesting, like, and I’m, I’m, I’m eager to go into those, like, to hear you about those things.

And especially since it’s. It seems like you’re one day you’re sitting in the classroom and you’re like, Hey, wait a minute what this guy’s telling me finally makes sense.

Nika: Yeah. And, and not only that, but, um, it makes sense, but I, it’s not just an academic Like, I mean, we would learn things in school and I, I realized that. They aren’t just things in school. I mean, research is showing these things to be of a thing, right? Like these concepts, [00:23:00] like even just in, you know, economic choice theory, before behavioral economics was even a thing we were studying, you know, trade off analysis or, you know, risk behavior or risk assessment, or, you know, we were running agent based.

Simulations, which is really how like individuals making decisions can lead to these grand big things. And, and then I was like, wow, this is kind of actually relevant on a personal level.

Hugo: Can I, Can I, Can I? Can I help? Because some some listeners or viewers like, um, risk analysis, behavioral, uh, like so risk analysis. I feel like I can also like if if there’s a 10 percent risk of you damaging something that costs a million dollars to replace, then you you calculate 10 percent of that million dollar damage and then you do risk analysis.

But the other thing you mentioned, like behavioral, um, I forgot the words already, but Oh my lord. Economics, yeah. Can you, like, explain that in a nutshell? Like, what, what [00:24:00] does that mean?

Nika: Absolutely. Um, so it’s easiest to explain against the con context. So the context being that there was a time in academia. In economics, in the study of economics, and some people still do this, where the assumption was that we were all rational.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: And I don’t, I’m not saying that this was actually believed.

It was just an academic assumption that was the use to create these, uh, assumptions. Models of behavior that were simple

that made

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: So for instance, um, one aspect of rationality is that we are utility maximizing. So the thing that we want, the good thing that we want, we will do whatever we will do, make decisions to maximize that thing we want.

So if we want money, then we are very rational and making the choices we need to make to get the money we

want, for

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: but with behavioral economics, which is kind of like [00:25:00] economics. Front through the lens of actual human behavior,

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: humans don’t behave rationally.

Hugo: We’re so

Nika: rational.

Hugo: We’re so stupid sometimes.

Nika: I don’t think we’re stupid. I think we are perfectly designed to be what we are, honestly. Like, we are, our brains are very efficient. They’re, they take up 2 percent of our body mass and 20 percent of our energy. in order to, for us to function as complete humans, our brains have to cut corners. And when they do that, our behavior does not appear efficient. Office rational. We think so quickly that we can’t be rational and by design, like that makes a lot of sense. If you think about the fact that first, like you mentioned, like so much of our history, we were surviving in these pre modern times.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: Where the, the [00:26:00] toughest decision we had to make was, Oh my gosh, I heard a twig break.

Is that an, uh, an animal

coming or

Hugo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nika: kind of, you know,

Hugo: Survivaling.

Nika: today.

Hugo: That’s it.

Nika: is a very different situation. Our environments have evolved past our ability to and, and, um, uh, process information

in.

Hugo: Yeah, yeah, we, we, it’s not as black and white anymore. Um,

Nika: not at

all,

Hugo: we have, sometimes we have to think a little harder to make the rational choice.

Nika: absolutely.

Hugo: I’m thinking I’m from the Netherlands where we have beautiful fields of tulips.

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: And this is an example, you know, about, I’m sure, but in the I don’t know, a couple, a couple centuries ago, tulips were the most prized possessions on the entire planet and which formed the tulip mania, which was a prime example of delusion, well, basically delusion and [00:27:00] behavioral, um, just, just making the most irrational decisions ever by human beings.

Um, so that’s one, one example, but that was more economics based. What’s, what’s an example of a, of a behavioral, like the, this, this, this science, uh, where someone makes the wrong decision mentally that that’s impacts someone’s mental health.

Nika: Right. So, um, there are so many, um,

Hugo: we are so dumb.

Nika: we are, I mean, so one, okay, let me, let’s say it this way. One cause, I think one reason why a lot of us are depressed is because we are in bad circumstances. Like, we are, we are in a bad relationship and legitimately unhappy, depressed, maybe anxious because the person that we’re with doesn’t create enough security for us, doesn’t give us enough certainty. Um, you know, maybe we think they’re cheating. Maybe who knows what the situation is, [00:28:00] but for very real reasons, we start feeling depressed or we’re in a job. And it’s, our boss is mean. They’re just not

kind.

Hugo: Mm-Hmm.

Nika: we don’t know any from one moment to the next, we’re going to get fired. Again, a lot of uncertainty causes a lot of anxiety.

You

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: healthy, normal person, which I believe a lot of us are, be in a bad situation like that and suddenly start experiencing mental health issues.

Hugo: Mm. Yeah, yeah,

Nika: possible

and it

Hugo: yeah,

yeah. All the time, I guess. Yeah.

Nika: Yeah. So you could make the rational choice to leave that situation. Right. The rational search choice would be break up with the person that doesn’t make you happy.

Leave the job, find another job

Hugo: Oh, yeah.

Nika: know, because as me,

Hugo: Like, if it was a robot, a robot would make that decision right away. No guilt. Yeah.

Nika: Kind of. And when we ask our friends for advice, they tell us,

right, cause they’re

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Nika: about

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: should just dump them. You know, they’re

not

Hugo: Yeah. [00:29:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: to say that’s the right advice, but what we, what we don’t do is we don’t pay attention to the fact that there is a tendency.

This is called loss aversion in behavioral economics. a tendency to, um, not want to lose what you have. To the point where you will hang on to something that isn’t great just because it has, it gives you something. Um, that’s more valuable to you than risking letting that go and finding something that is better. The only thing like that keeps us in is the fact that we’re in.

Hugo: It’s like you’re you’re in a cage, which is super small and claustrophobic, and you get the opportunity to move on to another cage, but you don’t know how small it is. And even though it can almost cannot be smaller, you’re still like, Well, it might be so I’m going to stay here.

Nika: that’s, and that’s, and that’s like a different way of thinking about, that’s a great analogy. It’s a different way of [00:30:00] thinking about risk of about risk,

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: you don’t know how small or large the world is outside your cage. You don’t know how frightening it might be, but we, our brains move so fast that we don’t slow down to actually. Look for the right information to say, well, what are the chances that the world outside this cage is, are better?

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: like when you’re trapped in a bad relationship and you’re depressed and you’re anxious, it might help to stop and think, you know, what are the chances that if I leave this relationship, I’ll find Another one. What most of us think is I’ll never find somebody

better.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: that’s kind of all or nothing thinking that’s really quick thinking. It’s not rational. The rational way to think about it is, well, gosh, you know, like of all the people that I know in my life. Or if all, I could even Google it,

right?

Hugo: Uh huh.

Nika: ask chat GPT, how many people who are divorced get remarried? How many people who have broken up with their first partner or second partner find a third or a [00:31:00] fourth? And the statistics show that a large proportion of them

do.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: So if, if you’re worried about losing a relationship because you have one, um, rationally, there’s, There’s, there’s a huge chance you’ll find another one and chances that it’ll be better are probably high.

And if you do that, you might actually not be depressed anymore.

Hugo: It makes so much sense. Yeah, no, no. You cannot make more sense to me right now.

Nika: Right.

But

Hugo: And,

Nika: what people do is they go to therapy, they take drugs and they, you know, pale hot of money to see a therapist week after week for, to cope with their bad relationship.

Hugo: Yeah,

yeah.

Nika: with the bad circumstances when than chasing good feelings, why don’t you just change your circumstances and, and override your biases,

right?

Hugo: So, so, does, does this, did this apply to you back then?

Nika: Oh,

Hugo: Yeah?

Nika: like, um, loss aversion is [00:32:00] something, um, like that specifically maybe applied later in life as behavioral economics started to kind of become more prominent. But when I was younger, it was more like reading about memory. Like in my twenties and reading about how fallible it is how inaccurate it is.

And then I, and I kept thinking to myself, well, then why am I going to therapy all the time, trying to uncover all of these memories

Hugo: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nika: Right. And do I, what do I trust more to the science or. I don’t know. I didn’t know what to trust, what else to trust, right?

The spine. So I started thinking, well, maybe it’s not worth spending all this time trying to uncover hidden memories or locked memories or forgotten memories. Like maybe they won’t be accurate. Maybe, you know, my mom didn’t do that. Maybe my dad did that thing, but it didn’t mean what I, what I remembered it meant, maybe I misunderstood something and I took it to mean this, you know, like, I don’t, I don’t really know. Um, [00:33:00] so why not focus on what’s next?

opposed to

Hugo: And, and so, well, this, this sounds so beautiful to be like, it sounds like like that’s a moment where you can drop the, the being a victim of your circumstances and just leave that in the past and move forward to a situation where you’re not a victim or those circumstances don’t impact you anymore. Yes,

Nika: love that. Um, because what, what you’re really, what one, what it really means to not see yourself as a victim of your past is to see yourself as, um, empowered to be the orchestrator of your future. And when you have that power, when you realize, oh, like in order to get there, wherever it is, I want to go, I just. I just have to make certain choices. I might not know what those choices are right now, but if you just [00:34:00] choose, you know, make better choices, your options are better. And then with better options, you can make even better choices. And those options are better.

Hugo: yeah,

Nika: With those better options, you can make even better choices and those options are better.

And you can just climb your way towards circumstances and environment surrounding that can lift you up, that can make you happier, that can, and if, if you do suffer from these, you know, legitimate mental illnesses, then you are in a better place to cope with them. Then you would be the, if you are, you know, or helpless. Yes. Or feeling like a victim.

Hugo: yeah. And it sounds like that’s what you did when you first, when you. stepped out of your career trajectory towards law firm and, and, you know, that, that, that path. And you started over again in a different path.

Nika: Exactly. Because I hated law school. [00:35:00] I hated it. And my parents were so adamant, they were like, you have to finish, you have to be a lawyer. It’s like this, you know,

Hugo: Yeah. Did they give you a hard time over it?

Nika: it was the scariest thing for me to tell them I’m not going to do this anymore because I knew they would be so upset with me,

Hugo: Oh,

yeah.

Nika: you know? And by doing that, I think it was, it was not an accident that I was at my lowest point during a time in my life where I was spending every day. In law school, which I hated,

like I was looking forward to a hopeless future as for a career.

Why would I be happy?

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: like I, I didn’t read it. It didn’t register to me then, but quitting law school, just put me in a better circumstance with better options to go do what I wanted to do. And that are just in and of itself, just bumped up my happiness quite a bit.

Hugo: It sounds like I said, well, it might have taken years of therapy or even if ever to to help you figure that [00:36:00] out.

Nika: I don’t know. I

don’t know.

Hugo: Yeah. Well, you don’t know. Yeah. And there’s there’s the behave. There’s a scientist in you answering that. Well, I don’t know.

Nika: Right. Exactly. Cause you, you always have to have, there’s always this little bit of doubt,

right? Like

Hugo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nika: about

Hugo: Yeah,

Nika: sure. um, but all of this is making me wonder, Hugo, what, what led you to start this podcast? What led you to start this blog? Um, curious about your story and I don’t know if that’s something

can

Hugo: no. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, I, I, I want to try to keep this brief. I’ll probably fail. Um, I was, I too was in a career direct trajectory, uh, which, which didn’t fulfill me as much, uh, which was offshore engineering. So, uh, the Dutch are very good at, at, you know, building ships, building pipelines, uh, building beaches and dykes and dams.

Um, which is what I did. Um, but but it [00:37:00] didn’t fulfill me as much. It was exciting at first, but it started to be a bit of a drag a couple of years later, and by the end of this, by the end of it, I kind of hated it, but what I learned throughout the way was just using spreadsheets, uh, using spreadsheets, using data to prove, uh, whether or not a pipeline would not collapse or, uh, you know, whether a ship would not,

uh, tip over or stuff like that.

Um, and I started journaling when I was when I was 20 years old. Um, and I also started tracking my happiness at the time in addition to journaling, which started as like this, this kind of, well, I don’t even really know why I started doing that, but I, I, I’m really happy that it did. Uh, one of the reasons I know why I started was Because I wanted to know what I wanted to stop myself from ever romanticizing the bad days when I was having a shitty day at work, [00:38:00] even though work from the outside was exciting and cool, you know, I would tell my friends of a project somewhere abroad and they were like, Oh, that must be cool.

Wow, you’re working so so many weird places. And I’m like, Oh, yeah, well, maybe it’s not that bad. And then, you know, I wanted my journal to reflect how miserable I was on the bad days. So, which, which is why I started tracking my happiness. Um, one of the reasons, um,

and well, and then I’m going to jump forward to the day I registered tracking happiness.

com, which is April 1st, 2017. Uh, because by that point I, I knew, well, I had this feeling like there must be more people who are. And who are wanting to discuss these things. Um, but I didn’t find any website that did or that did offer them a place to read about it and to discuss it. And so I thought, well, maybe I can do that.

Um, and [00:39:00] yeah, and now we’re like seven years later. Um, and it’s, it’s really grown and I found out that, uh, it’s what I enjoy much more than, than engineering. So I kind of slowly transitioned into into this. Um, and now the podcast is a whole new chapter to that because before this, I would never have a conversation like this with, with a person on the other side of the world.

But, uh, it is so, so amazing, um, having so much fun doing it. Um,

Nika: that is so interesting.

Hugo: that that’s kind of in a nutshell. Yeah.

Nika: you know what I love about your story is. That you took a probably without doing it or purposefully doing it. You took a scientific approach to your own wellness, rather than, um, focusing on the narratives perhaps, I don’t know, but tracking your happiness is really [00:40:00] collecting data.

It’s

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: collecting data and then thinking probabilistically about the world the way you did with those spreadsheets. Like

Hugo: I did. I did. At first I did spend a lot of time analyzing my happiness scores, you know, a daily scores like

Nika: That’s so

Hugo: it didn’t take long for it to become meaningful, uh, the data. And so I started correlating those things to other stuff that happened in my life and one of one of which was my career. Um, and so on.

I found out quickly that weekdays were far more Well, not far more, but like there was a trend going downwards where I, I,

I noticed that I was less happy on days where I went to work and on days where I went abroad to work on a project that was cool and exciting, you know, quote, unquote.

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: uh, and, and it just, I couldn’t, I couldn’t basically to, to, to, to, Get back to what you said [00:41:00] earlier.

Like this, this journal that I was, um, like these scores that I was giving myself, they prevented me from creating a narrative where my work was somehow exciting and cool because,

Nika: I love that you’re, I love that you’re saying this because when I me if you think this is true too, like, and this is just anecdotal, this is not scientific,

Hugo: Oh, then the answer is going to be, I don’t know. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

Nika: okay, well, so I know that there is research and I don’t remember the statistics. But I was surprised to see how large the number was of people who said they were satisfied with their work. But then you talk to people, they’re not always having the best days at work. Like I don’t see happiness at work I’m, when I’ve had work, right?

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: Like people just kind of push through and they do exactly what you were trying not to do when you kept your journal, which was there. [00:42:00] They’re, um, they’re telling themselves. Like they’re talking themselves into thinking that they’re okay.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Nika: Do you think this is common? I mean, how do you, how do you experience that in your, in your world?

Hugo: the way I experienced it was that I was tolerating my job and I was basically accepting. I was having peace with the fact that it allowed me to live life on on my days off. Um, but even though that’s I feel like that should not be the way to live your life. But I feel I feel like more people are kind of having accepted that as like the basic foundation of their their work life relationship.

And from there they build a narrative that, well, I get to work hard and there’s, I do some cool stuff. Um,

but, but yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t often meet a person where it’s like, oh yeah, you really, you really love your job.

Nika: right.

Hugo: that’s rare. Yeah.

Nika: [00:43:00] I mean, I’ve even had conversations with people where I’ve, I’ve said, well, what would you do? And like, if you had the perfect life, like the perfect world in a perfect situation,

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: you do with your time? And they never say, Oh, I’d still be a product manager at this tech company. You know, they never say that.

Hugo: No, no.

Nika: of tells you something, I think

Hugo: Yeah, and that’s a rational way to think about it, right? Um,

Nika: don’t know. I think so.

Hugo: yeah.

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: Um, yeah, there’s, there are so many cool examples that I, I, well, you have probably thousands of more, but it’s so interesting to think about that the way that our minds make the most obvious irrational choices sometimes.

Nika: Yeah. And it’s not our, it’s not our fault. I mean, you know,

Hugo: Now we’re designed that way, as you, as you so nicely put. Yeah. It’s a feature, not a bug.

Nika: it’s a feature, not a bug, but like, like most, so like most [00:44:00] that you use.

Hugo: Yeah. Oh,

Nika: it doesn’t serve you well, you don’t necessarily toss out the entire product.

You

Hugo: no.

Nika: around

it,

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: You

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: around, kind of find a way to override the problem by putting in your own solutions. what you got to do with your brain.

Hugo: Yeah. Wow. We, we are 45 minutes in and I feel like, uh, there’s so much else to discuss. Um,

Nika: I

Hugo: I do have to, I do have to start wrapping this up a little. Um,

Nika: Okay.

Hugo: um, but hey, um, maybe if you’re ever open to part two, because this, this to me is very interesting. Um, to listeners and viewers out there, if you find this interesting stuff, do, do let me know.

Uh, I would love to get your thoughts on that. Um, okay. So I’ve got two more questions.

Nika: Okay. We’ll do it quickly. [00:45:00] I’ll do it.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: talk fast

Hugo: Okay, okay, okay. Uh, decision scientist. What’s that?

Nika: decisions. It’s just who studies decision making.

Hugo: And so, what’s a decision, what’s, what’s a common advice that you would give to someone? This is part of the first question. Uh, what, what’s a common advice that you would give someone? Who is, well, okay, this is an unanswerable question, I’m afraid. Um,

Nika: Why?

Hugo: someone is struggling with being depressed. And it’s like, Oh, I’m not sure whether to go to therapy or whether to start taking medication.

Nika: Yeah.

Hugo: would you, what would you tell those people?

Nika: I can’t tell anyone what to do and I wouldn’t. And the reason why I wouldn’t give anyone advice, like I wouldn’t just say, here’s what you do because, um, again, there’s research on this too. If you have autonomy. Over your life. In other words, if you are in control of your own life and is making your own decisions, um, just by doing that [00:46:00] alone, making your own choices, it lifts your psychological well being. So I don’t want to take that away from anyone. But what I will say is this that and I’m. I’m writing a guide right now for my website, your next decision. com about how to make decisions while depressed. Depression makes it very difficult to process new information. Depression makes it very hard for you to see, um, positive options or to properly assess, know, with the, with the right probability, what certain outcomes will be like, everything just seems like it’s going to be gloom and doom,

even though

Hugo: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Nika: First thing I would say is. Be aware that you are not, if you are depressed, you are not seeing, objectively seeing the, um, how well the outcomes of certain options are going to be. So do research. If you don’t know if you should take medication, do research on The success rates of medication, the side effects of [00:47:00] medication, whether people can get better without Medicaid, do the research. Um, but, and same with therapy, like there’s research out there that suggests there, there is science out there. There’s data that says therapy may not be as helpful as people say. It might just be like having your job, right? Like you’re pushed through it. You think it works because you’re doing it and there’s no other option, but is it really working?

We’ll do the research.

Hugo: Yeah.

Yeah.

Nika: but the other thing I would say is, and this is, I guess maybe I am going to tell people what to do. There is a lot of research out there about proper diet, exercise,

Hugo: Oh yeah. Going out in nature.

Nika: Go out in nature, move around. It hurts, it hurts to move around when you’re depressed. It hurts. Like it physically, emotionally hurts. Walk to the end of the block and back. That’s all you got to do.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: it, it hurts to, you know, when you’re depressed, I was a drinker. I drank a lot. Like it’s, it sucks to think that I won’t have that crutch anymore. Just don’t find [00:48:00] an alternative. Um,

the

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: you are, the better you’re, you’re going to be able to make the right decisions

Hugo: That’s amazing.

Nika: listen to great Music

Music is sets off those same dopamine, you know, it, your dopamine receptors respond to music the same way they do to other kinds of stimulants that are boosting your serotonin and all that. I don’t know if I’ve got all of those facts, right, but I know it boosts your mood. So immerse yourself in music.

Hugo: So much more answer than I was hoping for. That’s, that’s so cool. I now have another

Nika: I

Hugo: very quick question. You have to promise me to keep this really short. What are you, what are you listening to right now? What, what’s the kind of music? Yeah.

Nika: Oh, it’s all over the place. I’ve, I’ve

gone,

Hugo: that was too long.

Nika: crap. I can tell you what I’m not listening to. I’m not listening to Taylor Swift.

I

Hugo: Okay. Okay. Good enough. Yeah.

Nika: Not that I don’t love her. I just am not listening.

Hugo: Okay, okay, fair enough, yeah. Um, [00:49:00] last question now, and you can take your time with this one. If people want to find out more about you, or want to reach out to you, where can they do that?

Nika: Your next decision. com.

Hugo: That was the shortest answer on the show.

Unprompted.

Nika: right.

Hugo: Okay, well, I almost feel like there’s time for more, but um, Ha ha ha.

Nika: again sometime, sometime.

Hugo: Oh, that, that, that sounds really cool. Yeah. Um, well, anyway, this, this was really cool. This conversation that we’ve had, um,

didn’t expect to be talking that much about behavioral economics and stuff that I’ve once read in a book, you know, uh, you’re, you’re explaining that in a way that’s so, um, concrete, you know, if that makes sense,

Nika: Good. Good. Yeah. It’s been helpful for me. I hope it helps other people too.

Hugo: Oh, yeah, because that’s the main goal. Um, to get back to where we [00:50:00] started to, to, to, uh, go full circle here, um, destigmatizing mental health. That’s, that’s the end goal here. And I feel like

your journey, uh, and the way how, you know, how you’ve overcome the struggles that you experienced is, is really inspiring.

Yeah

Thank you so much for,

yeah, for taking the time. Um, well, it’s one p. m. now in Colorado, right?

Nika: I think so. Yep.

It

Hugo: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, uh, do enjoy the sun, put in, put on headphones, listen to music and go on a run.

And what was the other thing? Oh yeah. And eat healthy food.

Nika: right on.

Hugo: Yeah.

Nika: I’m gonna have a salad.

Hugo: Great. All right. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks again. Have a, have a good day.

Nika: Thanks. You

go.

Well, there you have it. That was another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast. Now, if you liked this episode, please leave a review of this podcast on the platform you’re listening to. It will really help me share these stories with more people. If you [00:51:00] didn’t like this episode, yeah, just disregard all that.

If you want to learn more about my guest, do check out any links in the notes below. Or if you want to be a guest on the podcast, please go to trackinghappiness. com slash share your story. And before you know it, you will help others overcome their own struggles of mental health. Lastly, I hope you have a great day wherever you are.

See you in the next one. Bye bye.