Episode #15: Junaid Hussain

Hugo: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the tracking happiness podcast. Today I’m here with Junaid Hussain, uh, from Birmingham actually. Uh, Hey

Junaid, how are you doing?

Junaid: Okay. Thank you. Hi, hug. Thank you for having me.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s really nice to have you here, um, for two reasons. Well, one, uh, obviously your, your mental health story, which I think is really, really, really interesting. but also, um, first guest, not from the USA, from England, from the sunny England, is it, is it right? Well.

What’s the weather like in

Junaid: Yeah, 99% of the time, if you say Sunny England, you, you, it’s a wrong answer. But

today, right, today it’s uh,

it’s sunny England. Yeah, yeah.

It’s not too bad today.

Hugo: It’s that day of the year.

Junaid: It’s nice to be here. It’s nice to be a first as well, which is always cool.

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So not that I don’t like having to talk with Americans, but the idea here of this whole podcast and me interviewing people is to find people from all over the world. So, [00:01:00] uh, yeah, it’s just really nice to, uh, take another country off of the list. So yeah, Birmingham. That’s the second biggest city in England, right?

Junaid: It, it is. It, uh, people often think Manchester’s the second, uh, city of the uk, but it’s actually Birmingham and historically an industrial city. Um.

And so a couple of centuries ago, but it’s

now a very, very diverse, um, uh, city. and vibrant and lovely place. And I was born here, raised here, went to school here, and it’s very much home for me.

Hugo: Ah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, I’ve never been to Birmingham. I’ve been to, well, I also fell in the trap of thinking that, all right, you’ve got London, then you’ve got Manchester, Liverpool or something. Birmingham is not that, well, not that well known, I suppose, or Brighton, uh, even. but yeah, Birmingham is huge.

I, I just zoomed in on the map a couple of minutes ago and it’s just a massive place. Uh

Junaid: things. [00:02:00] Anybody who’s listening, you know, there’s a lot of things to do in Birmingham. A lot of history, a lot of culture.

Here. Um, and yeah, it’s definitely worth a visit.

Hugo: Cool. right. So, uh, well, yeah, we know where you’re from, but, uh, yeah, tell us about who are you? What do you do? And how are you doing?

Junaid: So, so super. So I’m Junaid, I’m, uh, by, by background. I’m a clinician. I’m a doctor. Um, so in the UK we call what I do, a GP or general practitioner, but in other countries it may be known as a primary care doctor or it may be known as a family medicine clinician or family medicine consultant. And so that there’s different definitions or variations of what my, my job is at the moment, and that, that’s my main role that I do as, as, as a doctor. Um, but alongside that, which is one of the reasons why I’ve contacted you or I’ve been in touch with you previously is also getting a lot more involved in mental health, men’s mental health as well. I have a men’s mental health platform. Um, I’m [00:03:00] from, uh, Birmingham, uh, in the UK and I’ve lived here my entire life, went to university here, medical school here. And I have a, a weird journey, should we say, or a strange journey from, um, of learning more than anything

else. So learning about myself and learning about, uh, things that I never, I sort of knew were there before, but I never knew were there before. Um, and, and now I know that they’re there. I’m learning every day about more, more about myself and how to manage my mind. And I think part of my learning and my journey in mental health, including why I set up the mental health platform. was around both sharing my journey, but also making the same journey and same issues easier for other people, because it’s, it’s, it’s a lot more common than we think it

is. Mental health is a lot more common. And obviously you can tell from my, my skin color, my ethnicity, [00:04:00] um, Southeast Asian by, by background, and even within Southeast Asian communities, it’s a, it’s a stigma and a taboo

Hugo: Oh,

Junaid: and mental health. And,

and yeah.

we were quite far behind sometimes in all these things.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Well just to chime in on that. Um, Well, it’s it’s a stigma everywhere around the world, but I’ve noticed and this is just anecdotal data. Like this is not significant data, but I believe it to be true. uh, like eastern cultures are the stigma around mental health is just even bigger.

Junaid: And a lack of knowledge. It’s, it’s, most of it is, you know, either you, you’re, you know, goo goo, ga ga, you can’t say anything, you can’t speak, you have a severe learning disability, or you’re completely fine, get on with it.

Hugo: yeah, yeah,

Junaid: and that’s not the case. And

depending upon which sort of community of people you look at, whether it’s more broadly East Asian, Southeast Asian, or Middle Eastern communities, again, it’s not talked [00:05:00] about, uh, was considered not a manly issue to. to talk about,

um, or to admit, but it’s

not, it’s not correct. It’s not, it’s not the right way to

look at things. And, and even as, as a Muslim, so it’s very apparent from a Muslim, from my appearance, um, is even as a, as a Muslim in the Muslim community, again, it’s considered a taboo subject, which is to me beyond strange, because if you look at Muslim, uh, theology. And that is going historically back into the time of the Prophet Muhammad. And then there was, it was well known and documented around cases of depression and anxiety. And many of the people around Prophet Muhammad would ask him, um, you know, I’m, I have, I’m, I’m, I feel depressed, I feel anxious, what should I do?

And he would give

them a response and so on. But now it’s like, you

can’t say that. How can you say you’re

depressed or anxious? You know, what kind of man are

you?

And it’s, uh, it’s, it’s a very,

I would

quite simply say, [00:06:00] very

Hugo: Like it’s either zero or it’s a hundred.

Junaid: exactly, and, and, and that’s within both the broader ethnic communities and within sub communities or religious communities as well.

And that’s, that’s not, in my personal

opinion, at least, it’s not a healthy relationship to have. And unfortunately, because these things exist, mental health problems exist, whether we like it or not.

Hugo: yeah,

Junaid: And I think the sooner we face up to that, and accept that, the sooner we can actually both live with it, and and sometimes these things come with strengths, and come with, uh, and even the experience of living it is a strength, and, and we can only harness that if we accept that it’s there in the first place.

Hugo: Yeah, so much to get back to. Um, um, just, just another, like a thought that came up in my mind. Like, it feels as if you either shut your mouth and just keep your head down and

keep going, you know, without saying anything,

Junaid: Um,

Hugo: seeking support, or you even say a single thing about, hey, I’m feeling a bit, bit [00:07:00] down today or Hey, I think I need a little help.

And it’s suddenly the doors to the asylum open and you’re off to, to spend the rest of your life with the rest of the, you know, um, quote unquote, mentally depressed people. Like it’s obviously not the case, but it sometimes feels like that. And that creates the stigma that, that it’s such a barrier to overcome.

Um,

Junaid: it’s, it’s, it’s one

of those things where, you can look at it in different ways, so, the way I look at it, if someone said to me, look, I’m, I’m getting therapy, or I’m getting support, or I have a mental health condition. Instinctively, many people will automatically go through a mathematical equation in their head, which would be, you know, therapy, what’s wrong with them, what’s the issue, what’s

happening, what is it?

Is there something wrong with them? That’s normal to do. But if someone said to me, I’m perfectly fine, there’s nothing wrong with me, I’m great, I’m wonderful, I’ve got no mental health problems. [00:08:00] Historically, I would have thought, oh, that’s great, that’s wonderful. Now I look at the, look at it and think, are you in denial?

Is, is, in fact, is the person who’s

having therapy and talking about it a few steps ahead of you? And are, are they actually, is it, is it testimony to their character and to their, that they’ve actually acknowledged it and have started to deal with it?

Um, so if we reframe it, you know,

people who actually talk about mental health or their mental health and try to improve it and try to work on it, You know, that’s a really brave thing to do and a really something that should be acknowledged.

And

Hugo: It, it shows strength and courage.

Junaid: And the opposite is, you know, if we

were to deny it, and we know deep down there’s something there that’s not quite right,

then that’s not healthy. And that’ll keep

staying there until you actually Try and tackle

it. Where to begin? Where

Hugo: um, what, what, what is your story about like, [00:09:00] uh, I, I feel like it’s a, it’s a really long story. Yeah, yeah.

Junaid: to begin?

Hugo: just a quick question, like what are the things that, that define your struggle? Like what, what is it about?

Junaid: Good question. For me, I mean, ultimately I have, to get to the end I have a dual diagnosis of Autistic Spectrum Disorder High Functioning Autism And

ADHD And that’s a

recent diagnosis over the past couple of years So, if you had met me two or three years ago, I didn’t have any diagnoses, I didn’t know. It was just, that was just me. Um, which

is fine.

Hugo: yeah.

Junaid: But, um, for me,

I suppose, my, my journey stems to, and if I look back and reflect, it was always there. It’s embedded in my personality and who I am. So from, from childhood. Um, so when we think about conditions like, let’s, let’s take ADHD as an example. The traditional [00:10:00] ADHD. or child even, and tends to be a condition when we think about children.

We think about a child who’s climbing the walls at school,

or in

a nursery, um, often possibly

aggressive, unable to focus,

academically

Hugo: butterflies in

Junaid: exactly, academically incapable usually as well,

um, through no fault of their own. But

that’s, that’s the, um, I, I was the opposite. I

was a, I was a quiet, shy child. I was, um, I was always academically very far ahead of my colleagues. Um, but if I remember reading my school reports, I find them randomly. Um, and one of my school reports when I was in, when I was about 11 or 12 years old, the science teacher, I think it was said, You know, he’s a very bright, you know, student, da da da, you know, really good at this, etc. But, he always lacks focus. And he needs to, he needs, this is what he said, he needs to concentrate more, and he keeps staring at the window. And, and it’s true, and I still do it [00:11:00] to this day. I lack focus, and I still stare at the window, because I still daydream.

And that’s part of my, my ADHD.

Now, for me, you know, my ADHD

didn’t stop me from doing well academically.

I did very, very well. And part of that comes to the other condition that I have, which is autistic spectrum disorder. I was able to hyper focus when I wanted to, um, and I created for myself routines. Which I didn’t realize, you know, and it’s a common condition with autism, we’re used to routines, we’re used to having things done at exactly the right time, in exactly the same way, every single day. But I created those routines and I used them as a strength to help me academically. So I’d make sure I’d study at a particular time, I’d relax at a particular time, I’d do sessions, eat at a particular time, etc. And I created those routines very early in my life.

So it wasn’t so much of a problem for me.

I had friends and I had, you know, I was awkward socially, I knew that. I’d say something a bit stupid and I’d feel embarrassed, um, but [00:12:00] it never, it never really manifested in a way that I had to do anything about it, uh,

until, or until it

caused a problem, until maybe perhaps I got to university.

Hugo: Okay.

Junaid: So in, in university,

I think the academic level goes up a level or two. So you’re, you’re strained a lot more. And because you have a social life now, you have, you have friends and the friends want to get together and things you can’t. Those routines can go out the window, because there’s a lot of spontaneity, you know, guys don’t, you know, guys want to get together, let’s play some football, let’s go and, uh,

you know, let’s go and watch a movie, or

let’s do, let’s do such and such, and,

and, it’s, uh, you know, and,

and that became more challenging, I didn’t know why, so from, I’ll give you an example, I always find this really funny, and When I was at university, I’d go to a lecture in the first year or second year.

I’d go to a lecture, and in the lecture hall, over a hundred students. And I’d sit with my friends, and I’d listen to the lecture. [00:13:00] After the lecture, I would go home to my apartment, and I would lie in bed for an hour and stare at the ceiling. Trying to figure out what just happened in that one hour. What were the social interactions?

Who spoke to who? Who did what? Um, and, and I used to think the same about everybody. I used to think, you know, everybody does this. Surely everybody has a lecture, goes home and think, oh, that was a tough social situation.

I’m sure they’re all lying in their beds, staring at the

ceiling, trying to figure all this out as well. Um, it’s only when, and I suppose I was experiencing and seeing these disruptions in my routine when I was at university. Um, but it’s when I got married and when you get married, you can’t hide anymore,

so

Hugo: is getting to know you, getting to know your

Junaid: Exactly, exactly. When you have a relationship, they get to know you Right.

And when, when you get, when they get to know you, you can’t

hide. you can’t, you know, a part of autism is, is [00:14:00] masking, is, is behaving in a way in which you, and you don’t do it consciously, subconscious, you, you’re behaving in a way in which you are covering your natural traits. Because you

know that they’re a bit embarrassing, or you know that they’re a

bit not quite right.

Uh, and it’s something that, it’s like a defense mechanism.

But you can’t keep that up 24 7. And when you’ve got somebody around you 24 7, it’s impossible.

So, imagine the situation where I was at university and, you know, um, and I’d go back to my room and lie down for an hour. I couldn’t do that anymore.

Because I’m like, well, my wife’s going to find that weird. Why is, you know, lying down in your bed, staring at the ceiling trying to figure out what happened? today. So, um, but that was a defense mechanism that through no fault or choice of my own, I had to, I had to get rid of. And as a result, my condition manifested more.

Hugo: yeah,

Junaid: Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah, because [00:15:00] it was

Junaid: Exactly.

Hugo: as soon as you cut them out, well, the house of cards starts to

Junaid: Exactly. So that regulatory, regulatory sort of method that naturally built over with time. And

it wasn’t, it wasn’t something that I’ve built

strategically or something that just, you know, happened to be that

I’ve coped with. This is the way that I’ve worked for me. Yeah.

And just like doing a bit of exercise, going for a run

or doing some weights might have been a coping mechanism, but these sort of came apart. So I’d say around about 2012 or so in my journey, at least, so we’re talking about 12 years ago, um, I was a, I was a doctor at the time, I was working a very busy, uh, job in the hospital, and as you can imagine, in every interaction is a, is one that I have to process, and I struggle to process it, and I think about it afterwards a lot, but you’re having a lot of these patients after patient, interaction after interaction, um, and then I come home, and I have my wife, and I wouldn’t have the same. Or I’ll be learning a new way of trying to balance, [00:16:00] uh, myself, and that’ll

be difficult. And I think I got to the point where I burnt out.

So

around 2012, um, I burnt out.

And I was, I had, um, a lot of traumas, as you can probably say, and difficult experiences from some of my time in, in university. Um, that meant that

I just, I just sort of collapsed.

So all my, my usual routines, my exercise, my dieting, and I used to exercise a lot, so I, I do that every day. 8 or 10K runs 3 or 4 times a week, a lot of weight, and everything else stopped. Um, and I just, I almost shut down. So I would struggle to get out of bed. I’d, uh, you know, I’d struggle to do the normal things because I was just so exhausted mentally.

It wasn’t physically, physically, that’s what you find.

Mentally, I was just exhausted. I could only just about cope

with what I was doing every day. Which

was,

Hugo: at that time you had no idea it was,

Junaid: idea,

Hugo: two things

Junaid: no idea.

So

Hugo: were now diagnosed with. It was horrible.

Junaid: in my case, And at the time I had my first child, And it’s interesting, and I’ll explain a little bit about him in a [00:17:00] bit, or remind me if I don’t, because it’s a, it’s an

important part of the journey.

Um,

but um, I had my first child and he, he was a difficult child from the point of view that eventually we found out he had autism and ADHD several years later. But

in any case, from birth, he

was quite a challenging, um, sort of child.

Hugo: Yeah.

Junaid: And so I had, I had a lot

going on. I could just about manage to get through my working day. without doing anything extra. And

I went to my primary care doctor and

I explained this. I said, look, I’m, I’m, I’m constantly exhausted and my mood is up and down and my wife doesn’t deserve this. You know, she doesn’t, she doesn’t deserve me to be. and I’ve been frustrated and upset and these sorts of things, so um, all the time.

And uh, what’s going on. And the doctor first said, well maybe it’s because I had a new child. And then later on I went back again, maybe a year or so later a year or two later which is weird because the issues were exactly the same between that period of time. And if you think about [00:18:00] men You know, men tend not to present with their mental health issues much at all to doctors.

And that, I was a classic example of that. I saw a doctor in 2012, I saw a doctor again in 2014, and I spent two years being completely incapacitated in between, you

know. And this is a warning for all, any doctors, any clinicians who are out there, if men are approaching you with mental health problems, take it seriously. But anyway, um,

Hugo: Can I maybe just chime in a bit?

Junaid: of course.

Hugo: I’ve so far interviewed, know, 170 ish people. Most of them are female.

Junaid: Mm

Hugo: And then if you’re short sighted, you would say, ah, females like women are dealing with more mental health struggles.

Junaid: mm

Hugo: like the better theory is that men are just less inclined to seek help and to come out

Junaid: I I’m sure about it.

Hugo: and seek support, which, which to me, um, explains why men are more often, uh, come, uh, [00:19:00] contemplating suicide or seeking relief in alcohol or drugs.

Uh, like those, the data is out there. It’s, it’s clear. Whereas women are, I think, well, I don’t know how to best explain it, but they are socially more, well, developed, if that’s the right word, in a way that for them it’s easier to seek help, to chat to their friends, families about the things they are struggling with.

so, yeah, I, well, kind of wanted to chime in there and say, yeah, I do see that too, that for men it’s just a bigger obstacle to overcome, to just, you know.

Junaid: We don’t have that. Yeah. We don’t have that

natural emotional intelligence, um, or emotional

intelligence. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the right word. is, um,

emotional intelligence.

Hugo: feel offended if you call it that and I don’t think many men will. I think most men will understand. Like yeah, I think that’s that’s the right word for it.

Junaid: So it.

so it’s, um, yeah, it, [00:20:00] um, and I, I completely agree. Uh, and, and, and, and then that, that search for dopamine in men, we don’t want to open up

because that, that, because that’s not the type of

dopamine we’re looking for. We’re looking for something a bit more instantaneous. Which is for many men will be alcohol or be

drugs for some men will be, you know

pornography and addictions

in Yeah addictions of other forms gambling

As a coping mechanism as a hunt for

something to keep making feel a bit better in that moment in time

Yeah

Where was I?

No, no, no, no. So I think I was saying, so I went to see a doctor again a couple of years later, and all this time, I’m not exercising

any more, eating whatever, and putting on weight. and I went to the doctor and he said, well, I think you’re depressed. I think you have depression. Here’s some medication.

Try this. Okay,

try it. I felt a little bit

better on the

medication [00:21:00] yeah.

it’s a medication around serotonin. Again, it works with the brain and it will make some difference And it made a little bit of difference and off unfortunately on these medications for a while

Hugo: Okay.

Junaid: Within that time I went abroad

And I came back to the UK again just before the pandemic. Um, by now I’ve put on about 40 kilos in weight over a period of about 10 years. You know, so I’m

massive compared to what I used to be.

Um, I’m very conscious

of that as well at the time. And I’m just thinking these things are not, you know, things are not adding up to me in myself. In my case, I was very, very lucky.

I spoke to a friend of mine who was a psychiatrist who I knew from when I first met him. Uh, starting my, my training and he was doing his psychiatry training. I was doing my primary care training and I spoke to him about my son because I was worried more about my son.

Hugo: Yeah.

How old was he at this time?

Junaid: He was around seven, six and a half or seven years old,

but he [00:22:00] was completely dysregulated emotionally.

So he was often very aggressive, very sad, had, you know, extreme bouts of depression, extremely anxious. And even though it’s obvious to me now what he had, at the time I had no idea what was going on with him. And he was

like this since his birth, and I was like, something’s wrong, I don’t know what it

is, I can’t figure it out.

I spoke to my friend, we did some tests, went through some questionnaires, did some online, you know, gold standard tests. And he diagnosed my son with Autistic Spectrum Disorder and ADHD. And he started on medication and thankfully he’s a lot better and he’s in a better place now than where he was previously.

But then, so my wife said to me, look you’re ongoing with these medications for how long? And you know, They’re still not quite right. Why don’t you have a chat with, with him as well?

And I’m ever so grateful to my wife, honestly, ever so grateful.

I can’t think of anybody else who would ever have stuck with me in the same way and helped me in the same way because, because it’s a story [00:23:00] of, of patience.

I wouldn’t be able to live with myself, nevermind her living with me and helping me and through all the, all the journey throughout the year of me being up and then down and up and then down. Um, and interestingly, before I get into my diagnosis, interestingly, Bipolar disorder was something that crossed my mind at one point, you know, do I have bipolar because and it’s because you know You have those ups and you have those downs, right? And

that’s a common understanding of bipolar disorder

Hugo: Yeah.

Junaid: the current understanding or

improvement in understanding around ADHD is that many of those many people not everybody many people who have previously diagnosed with bipolar may Possibly have a diagnosis of ADHD instead And I had a conversation with a consultant psychiatrist, in fact one of the psychiatrists looked after my son, who said that, in her opinion at least, Unless you’ve been sectioned in a mental health institute, it’s very unlikely you have true [00:24:00] bipolar. Because true bipolar is, especially the manic, manic part, where you’re very high.

You know, you have this

god like look at the world. I am perfection. You know, and you have these very bizarre thoughts, which is not typical of ADHD. ADHD is more around impulsivity. and lack of focus. So anyway, I had the conversation with my friend, I got my diagnosis of Autistic Spectrum Disorder, ADHD,

Hugo: Yeah.

Junaid: like I said, there’s two parts to ADHD.

There’s the, uh, well there’s more than two parts, but there’s two main parts. Impulsivity and there’s

focus. So yeah, focusing on

what you can and can’t do and, and impulsivity, doing things out of impulse. And that’s, that’s how

Hugo: Yeah.

Junaid: I got to my diagnosis. That was a couple of years ago.

And since then, I’ve, um, been on medication and I’ve actually engaged myself in psychotherapy. [00:25:00] And I’m in a much better place and I was, I said the other day, I think, um, um, that over the past nine, or the past year, I’ve been very stable.

And the past nine months, I’ve restarted exercising properly and I’ve lost already 20 kilos.

Hugo: Oh, wow.

Junaid: So it shows

the importance of, I mean, I’m talking a lot here, you have to stop me a bit, but um, it’s the importance of exercise and mental health.

So we often hear, you know, go for a run is good for your mental health, right?

Well, doing exercise is good for your mental health.

There’s some people who can’t exercise, like myself, because of their mental health. And

sometimes you need, you need to get your mental health right

first. And then once you get that into a better place. Yeah, you can, you can then accelerate that progress.

Hugo: Wow. Well, well, I didn’t interrupt you there because it just kept going. Like, the story was told [00:26:00] so well. I felt like if I start asking questions, um, I don’t want to get the story off the rails. Uh, I do have some questions though, but man, wow. First of all, like, shout out to your, to your partner.

Junaid: I think it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s amazing. And with men generally, more generally speaking, it’s often the partners who say that something’s not quite right. Why don’t you go and, um, you know, speak to the doctor? Why don’t you

go and do this? And then they’ll, they, they, they

will unfortunately suffer. The, the difficulties as well in that relationship, they’ll put up with some of the challenges, um, out of love for the

for you as a as a man. And that’s testimony to them, because it’s, uh, and that’s testimony to their, their love and their, their, towards you. And how am I supposed to help you as well?

Hugo: Did you feel like you had to do, well, um, did you feel like you went through this diagnosis process for yourself or for your [00:27:00] wife perhaps?

Junaid: Good question. Um, I think a combination. So, I think a combination. I think I’ve always known something wasn’t quite right, but I’ve never been able to put my finger on it. And I’m, it’s frustrating for me because I consider myself, you know, relatively speaking, an intelligent guy, relatively speaking, I’m able to figure most things out. But I couldn’t figure this out about myself. And that was very difficult.

And, and, and having to rebuild the way I look at the world, um, was, is very challenging because now I, I, I understand why I thought the way I did, why I behaved the way I did, and, and, and my actions. So, it was, a lot of it was about me, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t necessarily me recognizing that initially. I think I

needed to be pushed by my wife, and, and that, that was very helpful, to be honest.

And once, once I was pushed and once I understood and

I, once I accepted, then it became a lot easier.

Hugo: [00:28:00] Yeah. Wow. Um, you, you talked a bit about, you know, there’s a strength to, you know, those two, uh, well, struggles. Like ADHD, I’ve read, uh, I think in an article or in a book, um, that ADHD has, like many people thrive on some of the symptoms of ADHD. Like, uh, I think one of the, of the, well, one of the questions that you get asked is, hey, if you are, do you feel like you’re being driven by some kind of engine that’s always running and running and running?

Um, and if your answer is yes, then, well, you might be in that little spectrum. Uh, but, but, the article was about, hey, this is actually a thing that helps people with ADHD, uh, thrive and excel at some places. And I think you mentioned it too in college where you had like the combinations of, of, of, uh, autism, like high functioning autism and [00:29:00] ADHD that helped you actually, uh, in a couple of ways.

Junaid: It’s very much a spectrum. Um, so in the case of my son,

uh, it’s crippling. Without, without medication, he cannot cope. He cannot study. And so some people it’s very, very difficult and you’ll find they may academically struggle. Uh, they may struggle to get a job afterwards. Uh, it depends on the severity. For me, severity wasn’t enough. Affect me academically when I was younger, thankfully. Um, but it did have an effect in terms of traumas on my, on my mental health.

Um, the, yeah,

the, so I often hear the term, you know, a ADHD is my superpower, or autism is my superpower, and this sorts of, this sort of terminology and I, I partially agree and partially disagree with, with that.

I think it’s a super powerful sum and it’s a completely disabling condition for others.

Um, and

for me in some aspects,

especially my creativity. mass strategic thinking. [00:30:00] my intellectual ability, my, my, um, my ideas and my processes. It’s fantastic. It’s unbelievable. It’s, it’s, you know, it’s incredible. And the things that I’ve achieved so far, and the things that I’m looking forward to achieving in the future, it’s, you know, in no small part to the, my ability to both to focus, but my ability to also be extremely creative.

And I need to be able to think several steps ahead. work towards ambitious goals. So, so, um, yeah, so that, that, that was really good. But for me, it was also crippling for many years. Um,

it affected my, it affected

Hugo: and

Junaid: my marriage, if it affected my physical health,

um, it affected my relationship with my children

and affected many, many different aspects of my life.

So when someone has a, you know, Paints. No, it’s a superpower. I think that’s not fair.

It’s, and, and those who don’t find it, a

superpower will resent [00:31:00] that because it, it has, it can be very, very challenging and very disabling. Um, and, and until it’s controlled, until it’s understood.

Hugo: yeah. I, I really appreciate you sharing this perspective. Um, well, it, it really helps me understand the, the struggle. Um, because there are some in, in, especially in like entrepreneurial, uh, circles. So, yeah. Some people like they, they their success to their ADHD.

Junaid: No doubt.

No doubt. And, and, and

no doubt it will

have a, it

will have given them an edge in some form or another, um, in certain things, but it’s unfair to, to. to say that every person with ADHD has a superpower or is their superpower.

It could be, it could be their super weakness,

uh, as well, unfortunately.

Hugo: yeah, exactly. [00:32:00] Wow. Um, so, so another question, um, happened after? Well, okay. So you, you went on medication on the advice of, of the diagnosis that you got, um, did you notice the effects of medication?

Junaid: So there’s different types of medication with, um, with ADHD, um, and different ones work in different ways and for different people as well. And even, even though it might be the same medicine in terms of its composition, it can often vary in effect, depending on the brand as well. So, uh, certain brands of a particular medicine. Uh, brand names may work better for some people, some better for other people. So I started with a medicine called Methylphenidate, and I’m not sure whether you’ve seen the movie Limitless. Uh, no,

Hugo: matrix?

Junaid: no, Limitless.

Hugo: Oh, limitless, oh my gosh.

Junaid: have you seen it?

Hugo: No, sorry, no.

Junaid: Okay, Limitless, it’s a, it’s a, [00:33:00] it’s a

movie about a guy who discovers his pills, and he takes them, and then he has all his superpowers, and he becomes like really, not superpowers, but he understands medicine. everything in an amazing way. And that’s literally how it was for me with with methamphenidate,

um, in, uh, as a stimulant medication. And, uh, and it, it really happened to begin to focus and to stay calm and to, and to gather my thoughts and to, and to really sort of, it made me feel really, really well, but

for the first time as well, I was able to hone

my creativity. So I was able to really stop going from one project to another project, one thought to another thought. I was able to actually see something through. from beginning to end. So it was, it was really, really amazing. The problem for me with that was that it caused me to have palpitations. Um, so it made my heart beat faster. So I couldn’t take it

longer term. So I had to move on to another medicine, another

brand of the same medicine. And that, [00:34:00] that wasn’t suitable for me. It made me very low in mood. So then I moved on to a medicine called Listexamphetamine, which is a type of amphetamine. Um, again, that wasn’t suited for me.

It made me feel very low in my mood. So eventually I came across a medicine called etamoxetine, um, which is what I’m on now, and that’s, that’s really stabilized both my mood, my, my regulation. It’s decreased my impulsivity. So I’m not, I’m not trying to start a business every other day. I’m not trying to, I’m not trying to take on too many tasks and beginning to say no to new things. I’m not trying to overwhelm myself with, with different things. And, and it’s because of the, the effects of the medication, I think. And it’s given me time, the medication has given me the ability to learn about myself as well. It’s given me a time to understand what I, what I’m like when I’m actually better regulated.

That [00:35:00] plus

a lot of learning for me. A lot of learning, a lot of reading. And the learning and reading has come from two sources. Thank you. One is actively being involved in receiving therapy.

And the second is in

reading from amazing authors. I’ll mention one particular author. His name is Professor Tony Atwood. A double T W double O D he’s in, funnily enough, he went to the same school that I did. But he, um, He’s now living, living in Australia

Hugo: Uh huh.

Junaid: and he’s, he’s the

king of autistic spectrum disorder and

understanding autistic spectrum disorder and, uh,

and ADHD as well. And anybody who looks at his work and resources, he’s so nuanced. in explaining how neurodivergence manifests. So every time he writes, it’s like, this is me, this is me, this is

[00:36:00] me. Yeah.

And, uh, and he explained

how, how people with neurodivergence, neurodivergence can be supported as well. So,

yeah,

so that, and psychotherapy alongside

medication, uh, people seem to think often that medications be the one thing that you must have, not everyone needs it, depends on the severity of your condition.

Not everyone needs a diagnosis. You know, not everyone needs, if a 17 year old me didn’t need a diagnosis, I was perfectly fine. It’s when it becomes a problem,

is when you might need a diagnosis to help

you to, to understand yourself better.

Hugo: If you hadn’t, well, yeah, that well, it’s perfectly clear, I think. But like for listeners who are doubting whether they fit that spectrum in a way or two, what would you advise? When should they seek out that same steps that like the path that you, that you went through?

Junaid: So if you’re, finding that you’re, [00:37:00]

Hugo: And they don’t have a partner

Junaid: uh, uh, yeah, of course, of course. And that’s, that’s the difficult part as well, because I always knew something was wrong. But I never really wanted to admit that something was wrong, uh,

even though I knew that something Yeah, so we knew that something’s not quite right, but I never want to admit it That something’s not quite right, but if you if you’ve got a voice in your head That’s saying to you, you know, something’s not quite right there, you know, whatever whether it’s a relationship you’re Trying to create with people around you and you’re just feeling awkward whether it’s you know You’re constantly feeling anxious or worried whether you’re you’re unsure how to understand how other people are Conveying themselves and you know, you’re not understanding their emotions You’re finding you’re getting very angry or you’re finding in you’re always restless in the job you want to jump

from one job to another job to another job and Which is again is a common thing with ADHD and Yeah Don’t ignore that voice. Don’t ignore that voice in your head. Um, just speak to, [00:38:00] uh, speak to somebody. And if you’re not happy with the opinion you were given, speak to somebody again. Because this is an emerging area in terms of even healthcare. Most primary care clinicians will not understand it very well.

Psychiatrists will be

Hugo: with depression at some point

Junaid: depression or bipolar or other conditions.

Um, many, many, uh, primary care clinicians won’t, and so many psychiatrists are only beginning to catch up now and, and, and, and get ahead with this. So it’s not a well understood area. So if you’re not happy with, with your diagnosis or with your, or with the conversation that you had and you want a second opinion, get it.

If you’re,

or if the medication that you’ve been given isn’t working for you,

go back, um, as many times as you need to. Until you’re comfortable with, and are happy with the diagnosis that you’ve made, that’s been made for you.

Hugo: Yeah.

Junaid: But don’t, don’t

be, afraid isn’t the word, because I don’t think men are necessarily afraid in that respect.

But there’s nothing wrong in [00:39:00] going and speaking to somebody. Because like I said earlier on, it’s actually a sign of strength that you’re able that you’re a you’re overcoming that burden within your mind that battle that

which is within your mind you’ve been losing it so far

but now you’re winning it because you’re actually acknowledging that it’s actually a battle in the first place

Hugo: Yeah. I really love that perspective. It’s like you said at start, like if people tell you that I’m doing perfect, there’s no issue at all. Just steaming through life at full speed. Like you’re like, get a little suspicious. Hey,

Junaid: uh yeah exactly

Hugo: do you know yourself well enough that I can trust you in this, in this,

Junaid: exactly the, the thought that, you know, everything is, you know, everything’s perfect. I hope there are people who are, and everything is going perfect for them. The reality is that all of us, 99. the world will have something at some point in their life where their mental health is dysregulated in some form or another.

People will [00:40:00] deny it and say, no, that’ll never happen to me. I’ll say to them, okay, well, you know, God forbid, you know, some, a loved one of yours dies. You’re going to go through a bereavement and a difficult situation and sadness. That is a challenge in your mental health. And some people have great coping mechanisms with that.

Fantastic, and they’ll be able to bounce back and move forward. other people won’t. Um, it’s important to equip yourself with those skills and acknowledge that there will be times in your life where you will have mental health struggles and it may not be a big thing for you but there will be times and there may be times where you need to get extra support

as well with that

Hugo: that’s, that’s the entire idea behind this, this podcast and to show people like, hey, the people that I’m talking to might be, might be in exactly the same boat as you are right now and they have seeked help. They have done X, Y and Z to [00:41:00] overcome it and to be at a better place. well, I think your story especially is. It’s because ADHD is such a spectrum of things like, like case is still can be totally different than the other. Um, I think your story is so, so powerful in that sense, um, hey, if you’re able to, to kind of, well, um, looking for the right word to, to, to relate to another person’s problem and to see your own issues from another perspective, your own challenges, I think that can be so powerful.

Thank you. and yeah, as you said, like most people, like I think 99. 9 percent do in fact struggle, uh, maybe not right now, but at some point, uh, you might, and it really helps if you can relate to another person who’s been in the same boat.

Junaid: because we often create a or curate an image of perfection on the outside you know we’re in a [00:42:00] we’re in a culture now and an era of perfection. If you look at Instagram or Facebook or other, yeah. Um, and I love lying essentially to yourself and to others, um, about, about your own image and about your own self.

Um, the reality is where we’re not so polished and we have to accept that.

Hugo: And then, uh, another rabbit, well, this is another podcast, I’m afraid, but yeah, like. Yeah. Your mind starts to believe it. And in order to protect your ego, you have to believe that you are this perfect human being or otherwise, like you’re living, uh, uh, well, you

have to accept that you’re not perfect and

Junaid: Yeah, and

Hugo: maybe a bit, uh, a bit gloomy, but, um, Yeah, like, especially with social media, it’s important to accept that you might need help, uh, once or twice in your life or, yeah. Accept the possibility that you might be

struggling some days. [00:43:00]

Junaid: coming back to ADHD and autism as well, I was listening to an interesting podcast I can’t remember what it was, the other day, with a neuroscientist who was talking about ADHD. And I remember we mentioned briefly about dopamine. And so addictions, as far as a problem, is far higher in ADHD. So, because they’re searching for that dopamine.

So in my case, my dopamine came from food. Um, in others, uh, it comes from, uh, it could be social media, scrolling and so on. For others, it comes from alcohol or drugs. Um, interestingly enough, a lot of people who have ADHD have a significantly higher caffeine intake and so on. then, then those who don’t. So, uh, because we’re seeking that, that stimulant and caffeine is stimulant and it helps us to regulate our emotions.

Just like the methamphenidate is a stimulant and it helps us to regulate ourselves. [00:44:00]

And some people will seek, uh, seek support through, um, or seek dopamine from various different sources. Again, like gambling addiction in, um, in ADHD, gambling addiction is a lot higher. Others will seek it through pornography.

And an addiction, uh, to that. So, where these

things become troublesome, and again, for anybody who’s listening, in your life, it’s important, again, to, to realise that it may be a sign of something deeper. And it’s, it is important to get that, get that support.

Hugo: Well, that’s a nice place to kind of conclude this, this podcast. I feel like we could be talking for hours upon hours, like this is such an interesting topic. I do have a couple of questions, a couple of quickies, quickies. Um, if there’s a book that you would recommend besides, well, you mentioned the Australian slash English

guy, uh, Edwards, it was his last name, I guess.

Junaid: To [00:45:00] Tony Atwood, so any book by Tony Atwood, I would recommend. Any book. Some of his books are a bit more clinical, so that’s fine, but he has written for those who are neurodivergent, whether they’re family members, whether they’re, Uh, people who have neurodivergence themselves. Um, he has a, I believe, um, a lot of, a lot of resources online.

If you just google Tony Atwood or put into YouTube Tony Atwood, but basically anything by him is what I recommend for understanding neurodivergence. He’s so nuanced in, in terms of, uh, understanding, uh, any, anybody, an adult or a child with autistic spectrum, uh, disorder or with ADHD. And so that’s the part I like about it.

You’re really able to relate to him or I am at least, and you, and as somebody who doesn’t have neurodivergent, you’re able to see how the neurodivergent mind works. as well from a very logical angle. So it’s really, it’s an amazing, he’s an amazing walker.

Hugo: Oh, wow. All right. So I’ll be, I’ll be [00:46:00] checking it out myself. It’s so interesting. to listeners, yeah, a glowing recommendation. Anything by that, by that author. Yeah. Wow. Thanks again. Well, I do have two silly

questions.

Junaid: So

Hugo: one is it’s a sunny day in England. What, what can you do in Birmingham on a sunny day like this?

It’s a, it’s a Friday now. So what are your,

what does the rest of your day look like?

Junaid: I’ve, I’ve, um, I’ve, I’ve developed a like of walking now and hiking, um, interesting enough, not from Birmingham. I went to Europe, um, a couple of months ago, um, to Freiburg and Black Forest in Germany. I went to the Vosges mountains in France, um, and I developed a love I, for me, it’s a sustainable way of exercise.

Um, Because historically, and this is going back to my diagnostic, historically I, um, would do a lot of running and [00:47:00] everything else, but I went to the extreme perhaps in that sort of thing. So now I do a lot of hiking. So locally there’s a lot of hiking available. So we have, uh, Clent Hills, uh, we’ve got Licky Hills, we’ve got a few different hiking routes.

nearby that are quite cool. So I would recommend that. But within Birmingham as well, or the surrounding area, you’ve got the Black Country Museum. The Black Country Museum is a, it’s like a living museum from the, from the 19th century or end of the 19th century. And it, it shows the, the coal mine, so the black country comes from the black color of coal and on the, um, and it’s a coal, it’s like a, it’s got a real coal mine and, uh, and so it’s like going back 100, 150 years in, in, uh, in a time machine.

It’s like a living museum, so that’s really cool.

There’s shopping, in Birmingham, if someone’s interested in shopping and things, we’ve got malls and, uh, and sort of a very wide array of, um, shops and things like that, so that part is good. We’ve [00:48:00] got a massive amount of canals. In fact, if I remember correctly, we’ve got either the most or the second most amount of canals in all of Europe, in comparison to Venice.

Hugo: Exactly,

Junaid: Yeah, so we’re either

at the same level as Hannes,

yeah exactly, we’re at either the same level or similar level. It’s something there, somewhere, somewhere I’ve read something about the amount of peniles being a lot. So, uh,

Hugo: if we’re on the topic anyway of like, this is so niche, I have to mention, like, I once watched a video of a YouTuber who is from Birmingham, or around Birmingham, and his, his YouTube thing is crossing parts of the world in a, in a straight line, but anyway, he did, he did Birmingham, where he was going from one border to the other border of the city, uh, without touching a road or a footpath, and what he ended up doing was, he just waded through this canals

like the sewer canals and got

Junaid: yeah.

Hugo: practically from one end

to the other without touching any roads.

It was

Junaid: [00:49:00] Wow.

Hugo: a weird video, but somehow it kept a little space in my memory.

Uh, for this reason, now that I

Junaid: That’s all.

Hugo: it.

Junaid: Yeah, that’s cool. And then I got loads of canals, loads of walking routes, um, football. You’ve got Aston Villa and, and, uh, West Bromwich Albion and these Premier League teams as well. So there’s lots of variety of things to do in Belgium. Honestly, it’s something for everybody here.

Hugo: Oh wow. Um, yeah. I love it. Um, just the final question. And this is the silliest question of the entire podcast. Uh, I’m doing an outro, sorry. No, I’m doing an intro. Well, listeners have asked for an intro that I, that I make an intro for the show. So my idea is that I ask each guest to say with me, welcome to the tracking happiness podcast so I can join it and

merge it together.

So it sounds as if there’s an entire

Junaid: Oh yeah.

Hugo: saying welcome to the, to the podcast. Uh, would you be able to, would you

be willing to do that with me?

Junaid: Yeah, of course. Let me do it now.[00:50:00]

Hugo: on the count of three, we say welcome to the tracking happiness

podcast. You don’t have to like, um, there’s

Junaid: of course.

Hugo: to it. You can

be as offbeat as, as you, as you want

Junaid: Welcome to the, the Trafficking Happiness Podcast. Okay.

Hugo: And it’s nice now because now there’s a British accent in there instead of just American accents. All right. So

three, two, one, Welcome to the tracking

Junaid: Welcome to the Trafficking Happiness Podcast.

Hugo: I love it.

Thank you very much. Um,

Junaid: so much, Hugo.

Hugo: it’s been really, really, really interesting. I want to thank you so much for just going out here and to share your perspectives to share your stories.

It’s been really, really

valuable.

Junaid: Well, thank you so much, Hugo. Thanks for your time. And, uh, honestly, I’m looking forward to. To the podcast and sharing it as well. It’s um, it’s great work that you’re doing. It’s really important work that you’re doing, um, as well. And, uh, yeah, so keep going is what I can say. It’s, uh, it’s, I know it’s, it’s a task and I know, I know it’s, uh, I’m sure there’s days where you’ll struggle to be motivated, but I think it’s important.

You’re doing really, really [00:51:00] well, so please keep going.

Hugo: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Um, well, yeah. All right. Um, Oh, one more question. Sorry. Um, if people want to get in touch with you, want to learn more, uh, of you, uh,

where can they do so?

Junaid: The best place for me generally is, um, LinkedIn. So contact me on LinkedIn, just type Dr. Junaid Hussain, you’ll find a picture of me on LinkedIn and please connect and follow. Um, obviously I run manconference. co. uk, that’s the therapy platform, so it’s worth checking that out as well. Um, but yeah, it’s, uh, It’s um, LinkedIn is the best place.

I tend not to be very good on social media otherwise, on purpose, because it’s just overwhelming for me. Too many things to do.

Um, but LinkedIn is the place that I tend to, tend to live.

Hugo: Cool. All right. So I’ll make sure to drop those links in the show notes below. Uh, yeah, I think this is officially the longest podcast episode so far, but rightfully so it’s been super interesting and I

[00:52:00] want to thank you again. Um,

Junaid: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Hugo: All right. Thank you.​

Well, there you have it. That was another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast. Now, if you liked this episode, please leave a review of this podcast on the platform you’re listening to. It will really help me share these stories with more people. If you didn’t like this episode, yeah, just disregard all that.

If you want to learn more about my guest, do check out any links in the notes below. Or if you want to be a guest on the podcast, please go to trackinghappiness. com slash share your story. And before you know it, you will help others overcome their own struggles of mental health. Lastly, I hope you have a great day wherever you are.

See you in the next one. Bye bye.