Episode #12: Mike Cundall

Hugo: [00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast, a show about mental health struggles and overcoming them or learning to live with them. Today I’m here with Mike Kondal. Hi Mike.

Mike: How you doing today?

Hugo: I am good, thank you. Thanks for being here.

you’re from the States, I hear.

Um,

Mike: North Carolina,

Hugo: North Carolina, so that’s, East Coast, I know.

Well, East,

Mike: East coast, kind of mid, mid Atlantic States.

Hugo: Yeah, it’s where you have sometimes like the hurricane season is, uh, in that area, right?

Mike: Yes, we can be affected by hurricanes. We haven’t, knock on wood, been, hit in my area, uh, too much lately, but, you know,

Hugo: So are you near yeah, yeah. So are you near the coast then?

Mike: We’re about four, four and a half hours away from the coast. We’re kind of dead center in the middle of the state.

Hugo: Okay, yeah, yeah, maybe a stupid question, but when, when was the last time that you had to yeah, that you were impacted by one of these, uh, yeah. Yeah. [00:01:00] Events.

Mike: it’s, it’s been a number of years that to my, you know, we’ll get rain and whatnot, but, um, it’s been a while since we had anything really serious happen here.

Hugo: I once drove. Well, it wasn’t North Carolina, but I once drove through that area in the States and out of nowhere. It was like uh, it took 30 minutes to go from blue skies and sunny weather uh, to suddenly go to dark clouds. And we only knew that we were in trouble when we got the, alert from Google Maps saying, Hey, um, there are hurricane warnings all around you.

And, I’m from the Netherlands. We don’t have any hurricanes. We don’t have any, um, you know, big climate, uh, events or anything of that magnitude. So that was kind of a shock to us.

Mike: Yeah, the, the, the joke here

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: if you don’t like the weather, we’re just wait five minutes. It’ll change.

Hugo: So, so actually that’s funny though, because we stopped the car. [00:02:00] We were like, all right, we got to get off the street. We were on the interstate. Um, so everyone slowed down to, uh, um, and we were like, all right, we’re gonna seek shelter. That’s it seems like the logical thing to do.

So we stopped at a gas station and we asked the lady behind the counter like, uh, okay, what should we do? And she was like, well, I don’t know. Just. Get out there. Just, just try to outrun it or something.

Mike: Not necessarily the happiest or most helpful advice. You might get as someone who’s not experienced it. Just kind of Yeah, you’ll be fine Uh, from the Netherlands. Uh, we

Hugo: Exactly.

Mike: um, we visited the Netherlands, uh,

Hugo: Oh, wow.

Mike: a year and a half ago.

Hugo: Oh, cool. Where where did you go?

Mike: Uh, obviously went to Amsterdam. We stayed most of the time in Amsterdam.

And I gave a talk at, um, a university inland. And I’m just to pull up my CV

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Mike: and I got to experience snow.

Hugo: Oh really? Oh, you don’t get snow in North Carolina.

Mike: No, no, no. [00:03:00] Apparently Amsterdam, we had rain, we had beautiful sunshine, we had snow and we had sleet all the time. And the people were like, this never happens here in Amsterdam.

Hugo: Amsterdam is not known for, it’s, it’s, uh, like, it, like it snows once a year or something. But you, what happened to you was a, was a one in a thousand year event probably.

Mike: It was fun. We really enjoyed it.

Hugo: yeah. Oh, cool. Well, it’s nice to hear, um, outsiders having a nice experience in the Netherlands. Cool. Um, . Well, um, anyway, uh, what we’re here for is mental health. Um, just having an open conversation about a story of learning to live or overcoming a mental health struggle. Uh, so already, thanks for, for being here for the time.

Uh, for our listeners or viewers, uh, would you tell us a little bit about your story?

Mike: Oh, so probably 15 years ago. yeah, [00:04:00] 15, between 15 and 18 years ago, I, I got diagnosed with, a mild depression, mild to moderate, um, didn’t

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: to come from anywhere, but it was there. And I have since then been dealing with it in various ways. On and off, uh, up until now, the first time when I was, you know, diagnosed, the, the doctor put me on, you know, a six week course of, of, you know, uh, pharmaceutical treatment

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: idea was if in six weeks things have resolved themselves, great. If it comes back, then we’ll try like three months. And if that works, then we’ll take you off. And if it comes back, we’ll try six months and then and then 12. And then if not after 12, you’re on this stuff forever. And it turned out out, I got a week, I got a week, um, freebie from the doctor who had it on

Hugo: Okay. So it was in boxes and you got the first, the first box or something.

Mike: And something

Hugo: Yeah.[00:05:00]

Mike: then made it through, I, I bet I made it through the six weeks and, but Awful on my stomach

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: the symptoms seem to do a bait, but it would come back every now and again. And, um,

Hugo: So how did it affect your stomach? Was it like it

Mike: just

Hugo: upsetting?

Mike: Yeah, just

Hugo: Oh, okay.

All

Mike: uh, not an uncommon side effect with, with some of these, these sorts of things.

And, um, I didn’t go back on the medication because I didn’t seem to need it. And of course, I didn’t

Hugo: right.

Mike: nausea. Um, also, one of the other side effects. it could have been side effect. It could have been just Just in the depression, you know, when I used to exercise prior to going on the medication, I could get and hit and run real hard and go. And I got on that on, like, the, you know, the elliptical machine and I could, you know, I could barely do. 60 percent of, I mean, it just [00:06:00] crushed my

Hugo: Oh, yeah,

Mike: it was really strange.

Hugo: yeah, yeah.

Mike: so, got off the meds on and off and then I got, it got worse. The, the, the, the depression got worse, especially probably seven years ago.

Hugo: okay. So that there’s like a big jump in time, like where

it was

Mike: Oh

Hugo: a little bit on and off, like the, medication did its job, like sort of, um

Mike: it, it reset the system, but

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: still, you know, I probably still had cycles where. I would be, you know, cause depression with me doesn’t really as like, not wanting to do stuff or, you know, slowing down, it tends to manifest itself as as anger,

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: just being mostly, you know, angry and irritable more of the time

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: bonus for my family.

I think, not really. Uh, so. Yeah, seven or eight years ago, I went back on medication. I don’t remember at this point how long I stayed on it. I didn’t have the side effects that I had had [00:07:00] previously.

Hugo: Was it the same medication?

Mike: I could, I, when I was first put on it, it was not the, we were still not kind of telling ourselves to really track our own medical histories.

We were, you know, it was

Hugo: Oh yeah, just chuck it in there and see what happens and, yeah.

Mike: it’s good, then now, at least in the last 10 years or so years, there’s been a real, I have felt just from, you know. doctors and anytime I go and do a thing that there’s much more of a,

Hugo: A Scientific approach to it or something.

Mike: like we need to record. We need to, you know, keep this stuff noted and notated so that we can refer back to it,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: in medical treatment.

So, I don’t know if it was the same stuff. I imagine it was different just because I didn’t have the same effects.

Um, I don’t know why the beginning of a year, like a New Year’s resolution, kind of a dumb, stubborn New Year’s resolution. I was just like, I don’t know. I don’t want to be on medication the rest of my life, at least for [00:08:00] this. I just said, screw it. I took myself off and I said, you know, the symptoms, you know, the signs when it’s coming, let’s see if you can figure out different ways to deal with it. And um, you know, I used to just. uh, the, I used to, when I was younger, you know, if I got sick, I’d be like, no, you’re not sick, just And I could knuckle down and get through it. And I’m getting older or it was a bad strategy in the first place. It didn’t really work much, especially with depression. Depression is, is seemingly impervious to my desire to tell it to go away. so

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: I just, instead of fighting it, instead of trying to, medicate it or whatnot, I just, I decided to maybe just see how. If I knew when it was coming or I knew the signs, I could just kind of sit with it and let it just kind of in,

Hugo: Uhhuh,

Mike: hang out a little bit, not get angry, [00:09:00] not trying to you know, put any more mental attention or emotional attention energy to it and see what happens. And again, I, when I, you know, I, I, I’m a professor and will sometimes get brought up about dealing with depression and I’ll talk about my own story with my students.

And

Hugo: Uhhuh

Mike: said, I am not a practicing therapist or a clinician. Or I said, so I’m not recommending this, but like, it seems to

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: for me that I’m to deal with it. And I don’t pay the prices that I used to pay, even when I was on medication, right, it, it,

Hugo: Yeah,

Mike: it sits, it hangs out. I kind of look at it like, Hey, you want some lunch and. it doesn’t want to stay for lunch, great. That means it’s here less if

it

Hugo: yeah.

yeah.

Mike: little bit of lunch. It’s here for a little bit more, but somehow kind of defanging it in that way, taking away some of that worry that I add to it

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: the depression much more manageable. And I can honestly say that I [00:10:00] don’t it as much coming on.

I don’t see the symptoms hanging out and kicking me around like they used to.

Hugo: That’s that’s wonderful. It’s it’s, uh, I’m picturing you on a on a train track and you hear a train coming like choo choo. And instead of trying to push it back, you’re just laying.

Mike: step

Hugo: You’re like flat on or stepping off the track or, or just laying down on the rails, letting it pause over you until sometimes it’s a long train.

Sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a short one. It’s a silly analogy, but it’s kind of

Mike: it’s

Hugo: it’s a picture I’m getting.

Um, And so

Mike: for.

Hugo: So how difficult is it, though? Like I can, I can imagine, like first for a person hearing, hearing you tell this story and for a person who’s dealing with depression and on medication to, um, did you find it difficult to accept that mindset or basically accept the depression for what it is and just let it flow over you.[00:11:00]

Mike: So the last part you said, difficult for me to accept it. Yeah, that was hard. And that has a

Hugo: So So at first, like when you first got diagnosed 18 or 15 years ago, or like the one that

Mike: no accepting, letting it come, accepting, not fighting back against it, accepting, kind of allowing it to be, those are things. Cause I’m. I’m, I’m not that guy, like I tend to, if there’s a problem, I’m going to go work on fixing it. I’m going to find solutions for it. I’m,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: you know, what I do, my solution is to do more and this is the not do more solution.

This is the

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: allow it to, to drive things. The train has to go, whatever the tracks that it’s on and I have nothing to do with those tracks.

Hugo: No.

Mike: just going to hang out and do the, and do whatever I can around and near those tracks.

Hugo: And so, so that was difficult. Yeah.

Mike: Yeah. And, and, and, um, I probably, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t, you know, I [00:12:00] didn’t pay a lot of attention, like journal with it and figure out what’s going on to see if the, if the treatment was working. Um, I got other stuff I’ve got to do. Um, but I, I probably early on, was a A mixture of just stubborn refusal to let the let the approach fail. Like, we’re just going to try this and you just have to try it for a while with, um, let’s see how it’s going Cause. looking forward into the rest of my life. I didn’t want to have. In you know, the box of pills where

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: be pulling this pill Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, or whatever it would be, um, and I don’t know if it was a short time.

I don’t know if it was a long time. Probably means it was a medium time. Things started to just kind of get better, right? I just I was putting [00:13:00] less energy into it.

Hugo: Oh, yeah.

Mike: right? I didn’t want to. I was just like, just let it go. let do its thing.

Hugo: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mike: And then over time effect just kind of compounded, like I said, and I’m much, you know, I’m much better. And I honestly, I cannot tell you, I think maybe once in the last six to eight months, I’ve had a situation where it’s felt, um, where I felt like the, the precursors or the, sing, the sing signals or symptoms of the, you know, the depressional bouts coming along. Um, and honestly, I can’t be sure if that just wasn’t me being tired from work, right? Like, it’s difficult to know. Um, know that the, the peaks and the valleys have flattened.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: the duration of those peaks and valleys have. increased. Uh, shortened. So I can tell, the, the [00:14:00] solution is doing what I want it to do.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Just dropping your guard, basically allowing, allowing life to happen. And not forcing anything to happen with medication with journaling. I hear that.

Mike: and then there’s one other thing, right? Because I’m a, you know, I’m a professor and I

study humor.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: a lot of time trying to figure out ways to, to use humor, um, kind of as a, both as a prophylactic as, you know, it, it improves your mood and then makes your mood better. And more resilient to things that will come,

Hugo: Yeah, yeah.

Mike: to treat when you’re feeling bad, right?

Just go find the things that you find funny. And if only for those moments, you’re not in that valley. You’ve, you’ve countered that valley by creating that, that peak with humor. And the research is pretty clear on all that.

that is helpful.

Hugo: Wow. That’s I do want to ask some more questions about That [00:15:00] It sounds really interesting. Um, I did have one other question that that came up. Um, were there any other things besides, you know, accepting? medication. Were there any other things you tried in those 15 years to combat your depression?

Mike: So when you ask it that way, I’m like, wow, I probably should have done something more. But the real answer is. No, I just, you know, I, I didn’t, uh, and a lot of the reasons are, you know, job, family and other

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: Right. It,

Hugo: Was there like part of a stigma to it too? Like, all right, I’m, I’m, I’ve, I’ve been diagnosed and I just want to deal with it in a, in, in one or a few ways and not, I don’t want to go all out and try lots of things because I, I just don’t want to do that.

Mike: bet that played in there. Like, it’s depression. And, you know, of course, men and mental health, that’s a difficult

you

Hugo: Hmm.

Mike: to you know, work on. yeah, I do more of this sort of, Evaluation of my, you know, [00:16:00] my approaches and my solutions and my strategies in various things. I’ve, I’ve come to realize that it’s not often the case that there is a purity of motive or a purity of causal factors.

It tends to be this kind of blend of things, right? And

Hugo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike: I didn’t admit to my family until after I’d figured out what was going on.

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: you know, and,

Hugo: So you went into the off the doctor’s office, you got diagnosed, and that’s when you felt comfortable sharing what you what you had experienced all along.

Mike: yeah. And then part of it was, I didn’t want to burden my family with it. Right. This is my issue. Right.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: and this was not something that my wife appreciated or probably appreciates me having done.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: and that, you know, again, that’s probably something about. Has something to do with the stigma of mental health and mental

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Mike: and

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: man in in this

Hugo: Yeah, like you explained it with when you had a fever back then. You were like, I’m just going to push through it. And that that strategy, you applied that strategy to depression [00:17:00] too. No. And, And then just another question. Like, was it, how much of it was, well, you, you told it before, but you had, there was not a single factor that, that was the catalyst to those, to that struggle.

what was it or was it situational, circumstantial, or you don’t really know?

Mike: Idea what all I know is that what, what got me thinking about it, what got me paying attention to this is that, you know, I, I, you know, if you stood back or I thought if you stood back, especially at the first time with my life, you know, I was. a philosophy professor and a philosophy PhD. It’s very difficult for us to find jobs. So,

Hugo: yeah.

Mike: we were told at the beginning of graduate school, like, you’re not gonna get a job. And

Hugo: I

thought you were, I thought you were gonna say it’s difficult for us to find joy, but jobs.

Mike: that’s probably true. And it, It might be that depression is one of the thing, the, the, the benefits of being a philosopher, I guess, um, or side [00:18:00] effects, perhaps, anyway, um, uh.

Hugo: Jobs.

Mike: Yeah, my job was good. Uh, my family, you know, I had a, you know, lovely family. Uh, we were, we were, you know, we were doing fine financially.

And so everything was, all the boxes were being checked about like

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: expect your life to do. And I wasn’t apparently happy and that seemed strange to me.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: um, I think there were a couple of other things and I just can’t. Off the top of my head, remember what they were, um, that just had me ask the questions.

And, you know, the, the clinician that I saw the doctor that I saw, I guess, did the other ask the other questions that you might ask. And, you know, I checked enough of the boxes that he diagnosed him with mild. you know, mild to moderate depression. And then

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: years later, Oh, okay. Sorry. And That was my [00:19:00] computer decided to almost

Hugo: To go into sleep mode.

Mike: Yeah. Going to sleep mode. That’s what it was. Um,

Hugo: okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

Mike: Um, it was just not a set. I was not getting satisfaction. I was, you know, doing well financially again, family was pretty strong. Um, all, But my job was just not good for me mentally and had me questioning a lot of How I was who I was, cause I’d been successful at two other universities and I was and I was using the same tricks and strategies and not being successful at my new place and learning the new tricks and seeking out advice.

And, you know, again, following all the things that you would think that would lead you to doing well,

and I wasn’t doing well and it was. Like, that’s again, my strategy is like, Oh, if there’s a problem, then I’m just going to go fix it. I’m going to do more. I’m going to work with it.

And this was just not working, which [00:20:00] just messed up the gears in my head because uh, like, I couldn’t fix it.

I, you know, the, to the best of my abilities.

No matter what I did, and so that really was contributing to the, to the, the depression

Hugo: know.

Mike: driving it and then making, and then it had negative effects in family,

which

Hugo: yeah, it’s snowballed, yeah. The loop goes on.

Mike: together.

Hugo: Yeah. And so, so you touched upon this, but you’re you’re a professor of philosophy.

Mike: Mm hmm. Mm

Hugo: And now you, uh, like you talk about humor.

Mike: hmm.

Hugo: I, I’m doing my best to not dumb it down uh, because, um, I yeah, basically what, what, what does that mean? That’s what I’m getting at.

Mike: Okay. Right. So,

Hugo: Yeah. So, Sorry. There’s, there’s English is my second language, so sometimes I’m trying to find the words, and in the meantime I look like an idiot. Um, but yeah.

Mike: It’s, [00:21:00] It’s because humor studies, uh, which is kind of the area that I end up. You know, is is is a relatively newer kind of subfield. It’s interdisciplinary, you know, there’s psychology and philosophy and, um, and, you know, Mm hmm. languages and cognition. And so,

Hugo: Mm hmm.

Mike: so it’s very interdisciplinary, which is what I love to do just in general.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: Um, I did my dissertation research on autism, uh, way back when I was doing my dissertation and I ended up coming up with some experiments that one could use humor to try and understand, uh, persons with autism and some of the issues and difficulties they were having, which would then have supported a particular, Theoretical view, none of that is particularly interesting to anyone, but the 12 of us researchers who were doing that sort of work. And uh, I wasn’t able to do that sort of work because where I ended up being as a, uh, my jobs just didn’t allow me for that. So I started doing more general research um, around 2017, [00:22:00] 2015, I was, I was an administrator of an honors program, honors college, which is to, a subsection of a university that provides, Work for higher achieving students. Um, anyways, and so a lot of the things that I was hearing and we were being told to do was to give students more leadership training because they need leadership, leadership, leadership and.

Hugo: Okay, yeah.

Mike: leadership. And so when philosophers start to hear a word being used to explain and describe all the things that are wrong, we immediately become skeptical.

We’re just like, okay, well, uh, can’t be all the problems Cause if it’s all leadership, then nothing is leadership, right? Like, that can’t be what’s going on here. So. I was just looking around and I was like, why is no one talking about or very, why are very few people talking about humor and leadership?

And at the same time, there’s all this literature out there about the large numbers of disengagement in the workplace. It’s between 70 and 80 percent

Hugo: Like [00:23:00] people who are disengaged at work, people are just check in, check out without caring about it.

Mike: all that stuff, right? And that

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Mike: depression, right? Because

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: to give a shit right? That’s the thing with depression, right? You can’t even make that first step

to caring, right? You don’t have that, that motivation.

so, of course, I’m worrying about this both on a personal level. And I just noticed that I remembered leaders that I’d worked for and worked with who were really humorous were way found ways to use humor to foment engagement to increase engagement and otherwise just make the place a better Space to work in and yeah, so started doing this sort of research and I took a very [00:24:00] applied sort of look or turn in my research and I started really looking at using humor uh, to help in all sorts of situations so some of the research that’s more directly related to the stuff that you and I are talking about it happens to be with. People who are, you know, in either chronic illnesses or illnesses that are going to take their lives eventually, That’s if there’s humor present in those spaces on a regular basis, they have fewer depressive thoughts. Just end of story.

And if they have a caregiver with whom that they, you know, they have to share a lot of time, if those two can share humor, there are both the caregiver and the patient. Are in much better suit. and this is what I tell my students. I said when I’m teaching and I make a joke and you all are laughing and if you all get the joke and it advances what I want you to learn and you’re laughing and I’m laughing. a win win win win win

Hugo: When, when, when?

Mike: right?

Everybody gets something from this [00:25:00] and it makes the space more enjoyable. I

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: no better term for it. So when we can do that, I think, why wouldn’t you, right? Why wouldn’t you take

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: this thing that we all love? And one of the very interesting things about humor is that it has these kind of, um, effects or these resiliency increase effects persist long after you have experienced the humor.

Hugo: Okay.

Yeah.

Mike: you laugh and for the next day, you’re feeling good.

And if it’s consistent over time, like that day stretches. There’s probably a, a, a, know, a, a far extend, right? There’s a limit, but it’s not as if this is just like, the, one of the things you might see is like, they’re going to reset your bone.

They say, I’m going to count to three and they go one and then reset your bone. And then they lie to you because

the unexpectedness makes the pain feel less.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: [00:26:00] humor does that same thing. It has this analgesic effect in reducing how much you feel the pain, but that reduction persists well beyond the introduction and experience of that humor and laughter. So this is where I really started to in. When I start to feel the signs of my depression coming on, I will go find things that I find funny, like I will, like, and I write quite a bit about these sorts of things about where you can find humor in very small ways and very little spaces,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: because it’s so helpful, right?

And it’s so cheap and easy to do, right?

Hugo: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Mike: for it.

Like,

Hugo: Yeah,

Mike: find it.

Hugo: Or just rewatch your favorite movie, rewatch some, some video that made you laugh a year ago.

Yeah. Yeah. that’s

Mike: you know, share or the memes, right.

It’s there and, and we’re, and we’re it’s social [00:27:00] media is full of them. So Yeah.

to that. Well, drink from that well, when you can. And I have found that it is, it is super helpful. In dealing with actively dealing with right? Not my kind of passive approach where I just kind of let it come in, but like I can fend off some of the advances when I’m like, Oh, I can feel it coming on. I’m gonna go watch something funny. And I can, and literally. You feel better and you can kind of, right, kind of take a deep breath.

and you’re like, Okay, good. Now we can get to it.

Hugo: That’s so cool. Like, it’s, it sounds so simple, the way you explain it. It makes so much sense. But I I doubt that most, many people struggling with depression, Have thought about it that way like hey I’m just gonna try to laugh more each day to try to look for ways that I can make myself laugh or giggle or Something yeah

Mike: Right? And there’s a group called laughter yoga. There’s a, it’s a, it’s a literal international group because the re the research has [00:28:00] shown that the body simply doesn’t care if you’re laughing at something funny, or if you’re just making yourself laugh

Hugo: oh yeah, Yeah

Mike: for a certain amount of time. And it’s genuine, like, it’s actual laughter, not going, ha, ha, ha, ha. No, it’s got to be, it’s got to, you know, and they’re, and they’ve developed ways, laughter yoga folks have developed ways to get you to do that. going to get some of the same benefits as if you had found something funny. And that’s a really interesting finding.

Hugo: it becomes a double edged sword because like yoga is good for you, it’s movement It’s distraction, but then if you include happiness or sorry, joy and laughter to that to that recipe, it becomes like exponential.

Mike: And it tends to be done in groups, which we know depression

Hugo: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: having difficulty we’ll go hang out with people who are laughing and you’ll find yourself laughing pretty quickly [00:29:00] now you may not be like well i don’t know why i’m laughing but it really doesn’t matter we’re just trying to get you to laugh

Hugo: Such simple and elegant advice, really.

Mike: thank

Hugo: It’s funny, but but but Um, yeah, I don’t think that this is common advice though, like

Mike: right, because I mean, this is one of the things that, I’ve noticed is that, you know, because when talking with counselors and therapists about my depression and stuff, I just like, I mean, I guess we could go figure out why it is. I’m the way that I am, or why it is that I’m depressed. But the truth of the matter is. That’s why I’m depressed. I mean, that’s only why

It

Hugo: Yeah. It doesn’t cure it.

Mike: the depression now,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: may or it may not. But if I can get rid of the depression without necessarily finding out that, you know, and apologies to my mom in advance, if she ever hears this, you know, it’s just an example but like finding out that my mom didn’t love me enough might not be [00:30:00] You know, okay, sure. Right. But

Hugo: be a reason. Yeah.

Mike: It might be a reason, but like how we solve this. And, um, and it also, and this is just something that I’m, I’ve been playing around with, as someone who just kind of tries to think through some of these things. Depression is a serious problem and we have to deal with it in a serious way.

And we changed the way you experience the world, change your automatic cognitions, those hot thoughts, those, those sorts of things. Right.

Hugo: Yeah.

Yeah Yeah

Mike: but counterintuitive. It might seem counterintuitive that you would use something silly to, know, to get rid of depression.

But I’m like, you know what? It might be the absolute best thing to do.

Right? When you treat it seriously, you give it power, right?

You, You, Oh, I got, it. I got

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah. You, basically hand over a sword to your opponent and and you’re like, all right, let’s fight. I’m gonna give you a sword. Whereas if I. It feels like if you use humor, [00:31:00] like you disarm it, you completely disarm it and there’s no fight.

Mike: right. Like, it’s, that’s the same kind of the train tracks thing. I’m not gonna. not going to stand here and let you run over me. Like, I’m just not going to stand up and take that because we know the outcome there. I’ve, I’ve lived that one.

Hugo: Yeah, yeah.

Mike: But if I let you pass over me and I don’t fight you, It’s, it’s the same sort of thing. It’s kind of, um, I practice Japanese martial art called Aikido and our whole idea is to take linear energy and turn it and spin it and drive it away and use that energy to do something more, violent and more productive.

Hugo: Okay.

Mike: this is maybe some something of the same thought and and just kind of

Hugo: Yeah, yeah.

Mike: I’ve been talking this notion, you know, you, you kind of helped me think about this

Hugo: You don’t try to absorb the impact, but you just divert it in another direction that doesn’t hit you as hard as it, as it would have.

Mike: That’s a much better way than the native English speaker could have [00:32:00] ever said it.

Yeah,

Hugo: Well, all right. So I’ve got a lot of a lot of questions still. Um, I love this topic. Um, one thing that popped in my head was humor. Like there’s history books full of people in like in the World War Two, like on the Russian side, on the German side, on the English side, the allied side. where you’ve got all these morbid jokes, like the darkest, darkest jokes out there, like people who know they’re probably going to die and they’re laughing about it and they’re joking about it in the trenches.

Um, back then they probably didn’t know how much it helped them cope with what they were dealing with. Uh, but now talking to you, I’m like, Oh wow. They, they unconsciously, uh, developed a great coping mechanism.

Mike: there was a, I, I can’t remember the citation off the top of my head, but uh, there was this notice, or someone noticed that the people who [00:33:00] survived. The, you know, the concentration camps, they tended to be ones who used humor and had humor.

Hugo: Oh yeah.

Mike: and the way that I, the way that I kind of work on this and, and trying to explain it to people is is that when you can joke about it, no matter what it is, if you can joke about it, if you can laugh at it in some way, shape, or form, is the last place that you as an individual can punch back at the world, right?

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: me and it’s you doing it, right? And that means that you’re still there.

Hugo: Yeah, yeah,

Mike: that’s fundamentally awesome. in, in those awful times, I was, uh, talking to a British, um, I was talking to a British officer and he was, uh, running his group and, uh, his, his battalion, or I don’t know the proper military terms, his group.

Hugo: oh, yeah

Mike: under fire under an ambush and one of their members lost all or some [00:34:00] of his arm. he said, look, I mean, it is going crazy. We are, we are being ambushed. And if we don’t get together and get ourselves out of Dodge, it’s over. And I’m trying to get everyone to come back together and like, Hey, Hey, Hey. And the one person who’d lost his arm was Understandably freaking out like I

Hugo: Yeah,

Mike: I can’t leave. I’ve lost my arm

Hugo: yeah

Mike: and the another person in the squad said, no, you didn’t. It’s right over there points to it and the guy who’d lost his arm immediately just was like, right, right. And

Hugo: Wow

Mike: then everything all that panic went away and so humor has this wonderful way of short circuiting. Panic because yeah, you lost your arm. You think that’s going to change by freaking out about it. The humor makes you, you know, and and only humor can do this. Like I I’ve, I’ve not found anything else that kind of panic makes [00:35:00] us focus. Depression makes us focus like we only have these one or two things that we’re looking at and humor because of how it works.

Cognitively short circuits that makes you think of things in totally different ways. It forces you in a sense. think of things in a totally different way

Hugo: Yeah

Mike: to get that joke that no, you didn’t it’s right over there. He had to understand that the dude was making a joke about the play on the word lost. No, you haven’t lost it in the sense that I lost my keys. I’ve lost it in the sense that it’s become detached from my body.

Hugo: Yeah, yeah

Mike: And only humor does this

Hugo: Yeah,

Mike: as a thing. And and that’s why I think it’s so important, such an important thing to cultivate.

Hugo: yeah

Mike: that I, I I work on in myself, like I, um, I find it as an interesting way to help manage emotions. And the last thing, or maybe the one of the last things I’ll say about it is, um, I just, so I have a sub stack because I like to write.

Hugo: Oh, yeah, I [00:36:00] was gonna ask. Yeah

Mike: Yeah. Um, and, um, I, this one’s in draft form, but at the time of our, recording, there was a, I, have to give tests now back in the classroom because of the high levels of cheating that can happen with all of our

Hugo: AI

Mike: and cell phones and

whatnot.

Hugo: Yeah

Mike: So one student forgot to silence their cell phone and it went off in the middle of the test. And Of course it interrupts everybody’s flow and everyone looks and, and it just so happened that the, the ringtone was some sort of like chimey bells that you might hear at a meditation. Like it, you know, it’s very

Hugo: Oh, yeah, these asian places. Yeah

Yeah.

Mike: Oh, well that was your moment of Zen continue on. And, and, and what caught me was, As I, as I noticed people’s behavior, normally, if something interrupts you, especially if you’re doing a test and you focus on it, you turn back around, you’re going to be grumpy about it [00:37:00]

Hugo: Yeah,

Mike: you were in a state, you were doing a thing and you want to, and this is interrupted and you’re angry at

Hugo: yeah,

Mike: it. What I did was I was like, Oh, here’s your little moments. Then continue. it’s smooth. That interruption, instead of a sharp spike, just kind of rolled into it. And rolled out of it and they just kind of almost all of them went right back to without any sort of like sighing or grumbling or, you know,

Hugo: yeah, yeah,

Mike: can be a great way to manage emotions and, um, again, this is in draft form. So I haven’t been able to explore it. fully, nor have I, you know, of course done the empirical research, but I think a lot of the empirical research is also, you know, with, with just minor extrapolation showing you that humor is a good and effective way to manage emotions and in negative spaces. Sometimes that’s all you got, right?

Hugo: yeah,

Mike: else are you cause the medication isn’t working or exercise isn’t working, right? Well, laugh at it.[00:38:00]

Hugo: yeah, yeah, disarm it completely. Yeah. So, so you wrote a book about this.

Mike: Yes, uh, thank you. Um, yes, the humor hack. I wrote a book about how you can use humor to just kind of improve your life, be more engaged, um, largely because see so many people disengaged at their works and spaces. And, And I, I agree with lots of folks who think that what makes humans in a lot of ways is the things that we do, the things that we create. And when we’re so fundamentally divorced from our workspaces and workplaces, I just think of with marks on this one, that that’s a bad thing, Like we should be because it’s something so uniquely human.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, cool. So if people want to learn more about everything you do, uh, like a sub stack that you mentioned, like where can they find you

Mike: Yeah. So if you look up Dr. Mike on humor, it’ll take you right to me. Um, there’s [00:39:00] my TEDx talk that came out, TEDx Raleigh. So if you took my name, Mike Cundall and humor and TEDx, you’d, you’d find that. And, uh, I’m working on book, but this one’s much more of a floss, you know, 15 or so people

Hugo: A boring book to most people?

Cool.

Mike: it’s, but the idea is called humor and the common good that, that humor. Is an important thing for us to create the common good so that we can do things like do politics. So one of the ways that I, I kind of motivate the question for folks who might not, you know, understand all the philosophy and stuff behind it. So I said, if you could imagine someone from the left, the political left and the political right. In the United States, I think in France, they have the same divisions, but you know,

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: them getting together and laughing with one another? And if you can’t, if you can’t, if you can’t imagine that that’s difficult to imagine,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: that’s a problem if [00:40:00] you can’t, the people that we laugh with, the people that we share humor with are the people that we deal with difficult problems with.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: if you don’t have that underneath, figuring out how much money you’re gonna spend on whatever public works project that you’re on is gonna be infinitely more difficult because you don’t see that other person as someone with whom you can share a laugh.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: for us. And then I’ve, I’m working on an anthology on humor in, um, in religion and ethnic traditions. So, you know, um,

Hugo: Who made the first joke?

Mike: Yeah, or this really, um, like, how is humor and laughter played a role in the various developments of certain religions? So,

Hugo: yeah.

Mike: the Native American tribe, the Diné tribe, or Navajo tribe in the United States, they celebrate the baby’s first laugh as its to personhood.

Hugo: Cool.

Mike: is when the [00:41:00] baby becomes a person,

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: but when they laugh.

Hugo: Yeah.

Mike: pretty interesting, right?

Hugo: Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Mike: take something that’s closer to maybe your home, the character of Loki, right, in Norse religions,

Hugo: Oh, yeah.

Mike: So what is the trickster? What is the humorist? You know, how, you know, can we laugh at God? Should we laugh at God? You know, all those sorts of questions. So I’ve got about 10, uh, I think I’ve got a 10 or 11 chapters from various people writing on this, and it should be should be ready by, oh, probably the beginning of, or at least just be sent to the publishers. By the beginning of 2025.

Hugo: Oh, cool. Oh, Well, people, listeners, if you, oh, there’s a bit of patience involved, but, it sounds really interesting to, read about that. Hey, um, we’re running out of time a little already. It’s flying by. Um, but I do have one, one more question. Um, just maybe a tricky one, a one line question.

If people [00:42:00] struggle with depression and they want to be happy, they want to laugh. What’s your, what’s your tip?

Mike: Find the things that you find funny and find more of them.

Hugo: Well, there you have it. Like even if it’s social media, if it’s a movie, if it’s anything else, just do more of that.

Mike: Yeah, Don’t and don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, uh, what’s the word? Like, what is it? I think it’s called kink shaming. We shouldn’t shame people for their kinks. Well, then don’t shame people for the things that they find funny, right? I have a 14 year old son who loves 14 year old boy humor. That’s, and, and like, all I need to say.

You know what? Right on.

Hugo: Don’t go into details. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: still like, right. But, but you know, some people will be like, Oh, that’s juvenile humor. Okay.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Who cares? Yeah.

Mike: for the juvenile humor? Just don’t, don’t get too worried. Just find the things that you find funny and find more of them.

Hugo: Yeah. Well, [00:43:00] beautiful. All right. Well, thanks so much for getting on the show and talking about your story. It’s really, uh, really interesting.

Mike: You’re welcome. And I had a great time. Thank you for having me.

Hugo: Well, there you have it. That was another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast. Now, if you liked this episode, please leave a review of this podcast on the platform you’re listening to. It will really help me share these stories with more people. If you didn’t like this episode, yeah, just disregard all that.

If you want to learn more about my guest, do check out any links in the notes below. Or if you want to be a guest on the podcast, please go to trackinghappiness. com slash share your story. And before you know it, you will help others overcome their own struggles of mental health. Lastly, I hope you have a great day wherever you are.

See you in the next one. Bye bye.