Episode #10: Sarah Rollins

Hugo: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast, episode 10, if I am keeping track correctly. Um, yeah. And today I’m here with Sarah Rollins. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah: It’s great to be here.

Hugo: Yeah. Thanks for being here. So you are from the States, right?

Sarah: Yep, from Michigan, metro Detroit area.

Hugo: Detroit? Cool. So, um I’ve only interviewed people from the States so far. So all the first 10 episodes yours, including our people from the States. I’m still waiting for that person outside of the states.

Sarah: Well, you’ll get there. You’ll get there.

Hugo: Exactly. . well, so great to have you here. Yeah. So, so we’re going to talk about mental health, uh, overcoming or learning to live with struggles.

Of mental health, um, so yeah, just to get started, um, Sarah, who are you, where are you from? Well, we covered that. Um, and how are you doing?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Um, who am I? I’m Sarah. Um, like I said, I’m from Metro [00:01:00] Detroit. I’m a social worker. Um, I know that that’s my profession, but I feel like it’s also a part of me.

Um, I feel like even before I got my degree, it felt like that was still a part of me. So. I always say like I got my education growing up and then I got, got my degree going to school.

Hugo: So, so for the, for the people not in the States, like what is a social worker?

Sarah: Yeah. So that is a broad question. We could be here a while.

Um, so a social worker is, um, a person who helps people in various ways. So there’s many roles of a social worker. I’m a therapist. Kind of the classic one on one. Tell me how you feel. Tell me more about that. Um, people don’t lie on the couch with me. I mean, they could, but, um, so, but there’s social workers in hospitals, there’s CPS or child protective services, um, social workers or social workers at, [00:02:00] um, you know, elderly homes.

So, yeah.

Hugo: Yeah. It’s super broad. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah, but you have a couch. You’re, you’re the one with, well, a couch that a person might lie on if he or she wants. Yeah,

Sarah: yes. So, yeah, so I like the one on one really directly related to mental health. What you would think of probably like a psychologist doing, we do the exact same thing.

Hugo: Yeah. Ah, okay. Yeah. But you’re, it’s like a social worker is, it’s the big umbrella term that describes everything, all other people that are below it.

Sarah: Yeah. There’s a fact that actually social workers are the biggest, um, profession that takes care of people. So, yeah.

Hugo: You would think it’s doctors or, yeah, doctors mostly, but it’s social workers.

So interesting. So, so you said you feel like [00:03:00] you’ve been a social worker ever since you were a child.

Sarah: Yeah. So I was, my mom is one of those people who keeps all this stuff that my brother and I did in school and everything like that. And she sent me something in the other day. It was really cute. It was, my brother wrote something.

He’s about two years older than me. So for a school project, I think he was. Maybe 11 or 12. He wrote about me and he did include that we got in a lot of arguments and that was a good fighter, but he also said that I helped him with his problems and that I always understood how he felt and I just thought that was so cool that as like an 11 year old kid So I’m 9 at the time like he’s reflecting this and I’m like And his school like paper, that’s cool

Hugo: at, at the time you already had that talent or like that.

Yeah. Instinct. [00:04:00] Yeah. Interesting. And so how did you, well, did you already know at that age what you wanted to become?

Sarah: I think at that age, I wanted to be a teacher. Um, I, I always really liked writing on the chalkboard. I don’t, it was, I don’t know why, but, um, I didn’t like the screechy sound, but I liked writing on the chalkboard and I thought it was cool.

But when I took my first psychology class in high school, I was like, yep, this is it a hundred percent. Um, and then, yeah, I never looked back. So, um,

Hugo: that’s inspiring. Oh, I, I know I, in high school, I had no idea what I wanted to become. And so it took a while for me to find the thing that made me, you know, gave me purpose and happiness and allowed me to, you know, make a living.

Uh, I’m always a little envious of the people, a bit envious of the people who find it right away.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it’s common right [00:05:00] that people don’t know and then when there are people like me who do know we compare and we say oh my gosh, like I want to be like you and You know on the one hand I’m grateful that I knew but I also think it can be really limiting because I did think I was gonna be a psychologist and so Social work is a little bit different like the pathway is different.

And so I went right into psychology where I Um, social work is a different degree and I didn’t realize that social work even existed. I only thought psychology existed. And so to, even if we know, Hey, I want to do this, there’s so many ways to do this a lot of the time. Um, so, but I understand that like, there is a sense of like, Hey, I have some sort of path and that feels really like calming in a way.

Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. And so, all right, so we can talk a lot about social work apparently. [00:06:00] Yeah. Um, but there’s more to your story.

Sarah: Great. Let’s dig in.

Hugo: Yeah. So, so yeah, mental health, overcoming struggles. Um, can you tell the audience, the listener a little bit about your, your struggle?

Sarah: Yeah. So, um, I’m trying to think exactly when it began.

Cause it feels like. it wasn’t exactly like one date, one time. Um, but I would say definitely around middle school, early high school. Um, I developed an eating disorder, um, more of the restricting anorexia side, um, technically diagnosed with, um, I forget the exact term. Um, uh, oh man, it blows my mind. I can’t remember the term, but if

Hugo: it comes up in five minutes, you’ll just shout it out out of nowhere.

Yeah.

Sarah: Um, oh, eating disorder NOS. So not otherwise specified. Um,

Hugo: oh, [00:07:00] okay.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: So it’s like, it doesn’t fit any one model and it’s, it is an eating disorder, but it just doesn’t fit any, any of the big ones out there.

Sarah: Correct.

Hugo: Okay.

Sarah: So, um, I struggled with that for a while, um, on and off, and there was some complications, I had some.

Some stomach complications that um and some allergies like food allergies that I was tested for and so that really Complicated things because I really was sick Really did have a lot of gastrointestinal issues. And so it really like Kind of messed with me it was like, okay, I know if I don’t eat these things I’ll feel better truly like my body will feel better.

But then I was like, Oh, then I look different. And so it, it kind of was this double edged sword.

Hugo: Okay. Yeah. So eating caused [00:08:00] you these, these stomach issues. And then that was the notch to push you towards, Hey, I might just not eat at all to avoid it. And then that started a chain reaction, basically.

Sarah: Right. Right. And then I would, then I would make excuses and say, well, I can’t eat this food, even though that was not on my allergy list.

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And especially at such a young age that that can spiral out of hand real quickly.

Sarah: Right. Right. And it felt so enmeshed. It goes really hard.

It felt like a spiderweb, but it felt really hard to untangle. Um, so And I didn’t want to admit it. I want it to be like, Oh, we’re kind of putting everything on the physical health and not admit that there’s something deeper going on.

Hugo: Yeah. And so, so what were the symptoms that you, could you describe some of them?

Sarah: Yeah. Um, I would say the biggest symptom was constant obsession [00:09:00] about food. Okay.

Hugo: Oh, so it was the mental part like, like just like outside of your, your body, um, being affected by certain types of food, food. It was mostly the mental part that was the biggest symptom out there.

Sarah: Yeah. Like once things really transitioned to like, okay, this is an eating disorder.

This is not just, of course I had the stomach issues, but now this is a real eating disorder. Even if it’s. eating disorder. NOS is still a real eating disorder. Um, the mental obsession was excruciating. Um, like I couldn’t go to a movie. I couldn’t really do anything without being like counting calories in my head or being like, okay, I ate that.

So when can I eat again? Or should I eat again? And it was just like this constant debate in my head around food and negotiating food.

Hugo: And so, so Yeah, if you don’t want to answer any of these questions, feel free, but, [00:10:00] um, like on a typical day, what would you eat?

Sarah: Um, honestly, I don’t really remember. I think it was just, it was more of a lot less than I needed to.

Right. And I liked, and I think it’s really important because if there’s people listening, they’ll, they’ll compare and they’ll be like, well, she ate this. I’m eating this and I’m eating a lot more and if she only had this disorder then I must not be ill.

sarah rollins raw file: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so

Sarah: yeah, so it can get really tricky.

Um, but I was eating not enough to sustain my body and that’s gonna be different for everybody. Yeah, right. Yeah. So like what You might need to eat and what I might need to eat just to maintain like my current weight, my current activity level, my energy, all that stuff, just [00:11:00] at a baseline is going to be really different.

And so it’s hard to compare like apples to apples, but that’s what we do, you know?

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s the easy question, but I, uh, there’s not an easy answer to that question.

Sarah: Yeah. Right. Right.

Hugo: And, and so how long did, well, how long did it take before you realized like, Hey, this is a big issue that I’m gonna have to face.

Sarah: I, I think I had moments of realizing that, but they didn’t really stick until the end of my freshman year in college. So I definitely struggled for four, definitely four years. And it, it definitely whacks in weight. And like I said, there was better minds. You know, worst months, all that kind of stuff, but, or I guess five years, but the fresh end of my freshman year in college, it was like, okay, this is, [00:12:00] this is bad.

And I reached out to my mom and I was like, yeah, cause she had been trying to help me this whole, whole entire time. Um, and I was like, okay, I’m ready now.

Hugo: She’s been that little angel on your shoulders, whispering in your ear, like, Hey, should you really be, be doing this?

Sarah: Yeah. So yeah, she was always, you know, getting therapists for me and sending me to doctors.

Like she was really, she really, really trying to help me. So. Oh

Hugo: yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s, that’s great. Yeah. Oh, so, so I’m not from the States. Okay. If that wasn’t clear already by my. fumbling of some words, um, but, but, uh, high schools, uh, end of high school, early, uh, year of college. That’s, that’s age 16 to 20 or something, right?

Sarah: Yeah, I was 18 at the end of my freshman year. So people are like 18 or 19. [00:13:00] Yeah. If they go like straight through, which that’s not always traditional, but yeah.

Hugo: Yeah. So you, in the States, like. The whole world watches TV shows from the States, but I always get a little confused.

Sarah: And,

Hugo: and did you, did you study in Detroit area or did you like most Americans move all the way across the country to study somewhere else?

Sarah: No, I studied in Ann Arbor, which is University of Michigan, which is about 30, 40 minutes from here. Yeah. Yeah.

Hugo: So really nearby.

Sarah: Yes. Which was very helpful when I was, I was pretty. pretty unsteady my freshman year. So it was really helpful to be close to home.

Hugo: Yeah. And especially with your mom being able there to help you and support you when you need it.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so end of freshman year, you’re like, okay, I’ve woken up.

Sarah: Yep.

Hugo: Um, what happened then?

Sarah: Yeah. So like I said, I called my mom [00:14:00] and she, she did her research, right. She talked to people she knew. And what I knew was I had already tried, um, outpatient treatment, meaning so that in the States means like going to someone once a week or twice a week, and then, you know, kind of the traditional therapy that I do now.

Hugo: You’re predicting my questions and already answering them. I was going to ask you what’s that?

Sarah: Great. I’m glad we’re on the same page. Um, so yeah, I had already done that and I knew I needed more. I knew that I was at the point where once a week for an hour was not enough.

Hugo: So, so you did see that you needed it, but it was just wasn’t enough because Sometimes I hear like, Hey, uh, I’m going once or twice a week, like two hours, one hour.

Um, but it’s not helping me as much as I thought it was. So I’m just going to stop. You’re like, no, I’m just gonna go harder and [00:15:00] I’m going to need it more before it can help me the way I need to.

Sarah: Yeah. So actually at that time I wasn’t going to therapy at all. Um, but I had been in therapy and I knew. The extent to which my symptoms were so extreme once a week was just not going to help.

Like I, I think about it now as I, as I, as a therapist, when I explain it, I think about it as like, if your teeth were kind of decaying, if you brush them once a week, like how helpful would that be?

sarah rollins raw file: Oh, yeah, yeah, right and we all like

Sarah: laugh and we’re like, well, yeah, no right and so if if that were happening, it’s like no you would have to go into the dentist you or Whoever and you would have to like really create like an ongoing plan to get them Like really [00:16:00] cleaned or

sarah rollins raw file: you

Sarah: know, whatever they need to do.

I don’t i’m not doing this Um, but it would be more intensive, right?

sarah rollins raw file: Yeah

Sarah: Um, so in, in, in the world of mental health, they call it levels of care. Um, and depending on the extent to which your symptoms are, you might have to increase your level of care. Um, but it also is hard because when you increase your level of care.

And so what I did was I went to residential, which is outpatient is A lower level of care and then residential is higher, right? Yeah, and so That interferes with people’s lives, right? And it’s a lot of money and I was able to go between summer break um And I didn’t interfere with my schooling um, and And I didn’t have kids.

I didn’t have a family. So but a lot of people can’t do that. They can’t exactly Leave [00:17:00] their family Or leave their job

Hugo: Yeah

Sarah: So, yeah,

Hugo: so they, they might wait or postpone it until it’s, it’s far more serious, the, the issue has grown more serious, you’re able to, to get on board when you , well, you didn’t have much responsibility still.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah.

Sarah: So that, that’s one of, in my opinion, one of the problems with our system as a whole, right. It’s like the way to get more intensive treatment. Cause you actually have to leave your, leave your life in a way.

Hugo: That’s scary. That’s that’s such a big jump off a cliff.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah.

Sarah: Well, some people

Hugo: don’t,

Sarah: well, and like some people can’t like their single parents or they’re there for breadwinner and their job doesn’t allow time off.

And so it’s like, well, what do I do? Like, if I leave, then my family doesn’t get food.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the choice is easy. There’s no choice really. [00:18:00]

Sarah: Right.

Hugo: Yeah.

Sarah: So I, you know, I fortunately wasn’t in that position where, um, I, I went, my perfectionism wouldn’t let me, um, skip any school, but, and that’s a common characteristic of individuals with eating disorders.

There’s a lot of perfectionism. Yeah. Um, so I went to a residential treatment program, which is, I live there. Um, it’s not in a hospital though. So we lived in apartments and then we went to like all day we spent at a, at a treatment, you know, center. Like it was nice. Like the therapist brought in their dogs on Wednesdays.

Like it was, it was nice and homey. Was it specialized

Hugo: in eating disorders?

Sarah: Yes.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. So all your, all the people around you are either helping or in the same boat. Um, yeah. Yeah. And how, how did, how, how was that [00:19:00] experience as a, as an 18 year old?

Sarah: Yeah. So I, I always say it was the best experience that I could have ever had.

Hugo: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I was, I was thinking like best experience of my life. Is that? No, but that’s,

Sarah: I don’t know if that was the best experience of my life, but I am so grateful because I would, I had never met anybody with an eating disorder. I mean, I’m sure I knew people, but we hadn’t talked about it. Yeah.

sarah rollins raw file: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: And it gave me the space to like really explore myself, meet other people, recover in community because I think there’s so much isolation that comes with not only eating disorders, but I think mental health in general. Um, and so a lot of the people were my age, but not everybody. There were people, I was definitely the youngest cause 18 was the cutoff.

So 18 and [00:20:00] up. So I was, the youngest, but yeah, there was a lot of young adults. Um, and it was, it was the scent of like community and I was there for seven weeks and

Hugo: like nonstop every night, seven weeks. Yeah.

Sarah: Because I went to Florida, so I flew down there. Oh, really? Yeah.

Hugo: Oh, okay.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: Yeah. So, miles, miles away, like, like, that was over a thousand miles south.

Sarah: Mm hmm.

Hugo: Totally different weather. Oh, it was summer break, so it was probably even more hot.

Sarah: Yeah. It was hot. But, yeah. But I think that’s one of the benefits, is like, you’re totally out of your normal environment. You’re on your own stressors, right? And so you can really just focus on Your own mental health yourself.

Yeah, right. Yeah so um I will say that one of the common things and I struggled with this is they were like, okay You’re gonna stay for 30 days [00:21:00] and then we’ll assess and I was like Every day I was like, okay, so is it 30 or like I was like ready to go.

Hugo: Oh, yeah

Sarah: Is everybody right they They want to leave, right?

Like no one wants to stay longer. Um, but I will say I definitely needed longer than 30. 30 was just the cusp. Um,

Hugo: Yeah, the minimum.

Sarah: Yeah. Well, even like just for my own sense of getting acquainted, starting like a new regimen, getting, so we made our own food. Um, yeah. Instead of a lot of treatment facilities.

I’ve heard that they make it for them. And so then when somebody goes home Well now they have to cook for them. Yeah, exactly. They don’t know what

Hugo: to eat. They don’t know what to cook Yeah,

Sarah: right So we did all that there which was such a blessing because I went home and I knew exactly I went to the grocery store I knew exactly what to like get and [00:22:00] make and so it wasn’t this like sense of like, oh no I haven’t cooked my for myself in seven weeks and I have this whole new Like regimen, um, so yeah, I will say, yeah, I will say, I was like, I’m not saying one day after 30 days, I was like, that’s the perfectionism

Hugo: and I guess like, you’re going to ace this experience.

Sarah: You’re

Hugo: going to be the best at it.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. But I did and it was worth it. So

Hugo: yeah. So seven weeks, that’s like 40, 49 days. Yeah. So that’s a bit, a bit longer than the minimum. But, but it doesn’t, it’s not about how fast you get there. It’s about getting there at all. Uh, I assume. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so was there any judgments like, so at that age, you, you have a social life, you have your family, uh, and then suddenly you’re going to Florida to do something for yourself that [00:23:00] probably, well, your mom noticed, but I’m, I’m, I’m guessing that some people didn’t realize the extent of the issue that you were having.

Was there any judgment from others?

Sarah: So I didn’t tell people why I was going. I said, Oh, yeah, I mean, you’re right. It was part of that, right? Like, I think I’ve done a lot of thinking around this. I think there’s certain mental health conditions that have more stigma and certain mental health. Cause Oh yeah.

Less. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Eating disorders have a pretty high stigma. Um, And like sometimes

Hugo: people, people, um, have stress and they, they, they wear it like a badge of honor, whereas, yeah, well, eating disorders or, uh, some addictions there, you’re just so stigmatized. Yeah.

Sarah: Right. Right. So, and it’s not like, Oh, it was helping me.

It’s like, Oh, my stress makes me perfectionism. And then I got [00:24:00] things done faster. Right. It’s like, no, it’s Right now I have to go, you know, and take time off of my life to do this. Like, it’s not something I felt ready to boast about, honestly. So, so you’re

Hugo: like, well, you didn’t tell people because you were like, well, I don’t, I just don’t want to face that, that conversation.

I don’t, don’t want to be having these conversations with him.

Sarah: Yeah. And, I think I’ll, I’m going to be honest. I think a lot of people knew, um, again, my, my body weight waxed and waned. And so it was pretty obvious, um, that I wasn’t doing well. Um, not just because of my body weight, but I think there were a lot of other signs, but I had never said to anybody, I have an eating disorder before that.

So it was pretty like. thing to go and then I have to tell all of my friends, like, [00:25:00] not only am I going, but I have this like thing I haven’t told you about, um, but on, I do, I did slowly start calling people cause I said I was babysitting like a cousin or something for the summer. Um, but I did slow, slowly start calling friends while I was there.

And I was like, so I am in Florida, but I’m not babysitting cousins. So I’m here for, and everybody was really supportive. Um, but it took me a while to really want to accept the reality. Right. Right. So, yeah, yeah,

Hugo: that’s, that’s, well, um, Most people, like I always ask in the interviews, like, how did you feel comfortable sharing this with the people close to you?

And also the people that you’re not even close with, like some colleagues or neighbors or something. Um, most people [00:26:00] at that time didn’t, uh, and it took a while before they were able to freely talk about it. Um, what would be so great if that would change though, don’t you think?

Sarah: Yeah, because what I’ve noticed is that most times.

People either are like, Oh, I can totally relate on this level. Or I wish you could have come to me sooner. Or thank you much so much for sharing. Like,

sarah rollins raw file: yeah,

Sarah: there’s going to be some people who are a holes, but like, let’s just be honest, but for the most part, like people are nice.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. And with this stuff, it’s like, Oh my gosh, someone else feels that way.

Like. Oh, me too and like, so,

Hugo: yeah,

Sarah: yeah,

Hugo: yeah, that’s a vulnerability is often seen. Well, it’s, it’s changing, but vulnerability to most people is still a weakness. Uh, I feel [00:27:00] especially, um, for some groups of people or in some settings. Um, but to be vulnerable with other people who are allowing you to be vulnerable and are accepting of it, it’s, it’s such a, a good thing.

Like friendships are made at that, at that stage. And yeah. And so, so after seven weeks you were, you were back. Um, was that also the end of the struggle or is there, I’m guessing not?

Sarah: Wouldn’t that be, wouldn’t that be? Yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah, no, I mean I felt like that gave me if we’re going back to like the teeth analogy.

It gave me like a deep cleaning

sarah rollins raw file: Yeah,

Sarah: uh where I was like, okay, I don’t have to like scrub my teeth every day um At the beginning I did I had to be like, okay my you know I had to work pretty hard because then I had to reintegrate into my life um You [00:28:00] know a lot of the stuff that we did You I could just take right back and it was really easy, especially making food, for example.

Um, but eating disorders are not just about eating or not eating so much deeper, right? There was a lot of anxiety, depression, trauma underneath that. I was now ready to even explore because the, the food obsession was not so big. So I could actually explore the mental health conditions underneath. Um, and so,

Hugo: so what did you find?

Sarah: Oh, that is for a whole nother episode.

Hugo: All right. All

Sarah: right. Um, Yeah, but I mean the reality was it was that I had to reintegrate into my life and figure out okay I’ve been doing all these behaviors It would be easy for me to just come back and do all the same and leave that seven weeks in florida [00:29:00] So I had to find a way to really integrate that And not just be like, okay, they cleaned my teeth and now i’m gonna go and contaminate them again not

Hugo: brush anymore

Sarah: Right.

So, um, yeah, so, you know, I found a therapist here. Um, I really focused on, okay, this is, they gave us a food plan. Um, it’s not a diet, but it was something, especially for me, I needed to follow something because my mind was telling, was playing tricks on me about what I should and shouldn’t eat and when I shouldn’t and shouldn’t eat.

And so a food plan helped me be like, nope. I have to eat now because like, this is, this is best for my body. Cause I wasn’t ready to trust myself yet.

Hugo: Yeah. Yeah. So the guidelines that you, that they taught you down in Florida, you brought them and you’re still strictly trying to follow those. Yeah..

Sarah: Yeah. And [00:30:00] so I would say for like six to eight months, I was like pretty strict with that. Um, and then I was able to be a little less strict and be more of a traditional college student.

I was a sophomore, you know, second year in college. And, um, that helped me too, because I felt like my life was kind of rigid and that was hard. Um, but yeah, I, to me, it feels like a daily teeth cleaning, like I don’t have to do a lot, um, to maintain my recovery, but if I ignore it, if I never cleaned my teeth, like

sarah rollins raw file: plaque’s

Sarah: gonna build up.

Um, so do I never have a fleeting thought about food or how many calories that has or no, like I do, but before it would be like that thought was all I could think about. And then it would take over and I would act on it. And then it would just [00:31:00] spiral where now it’s like, okay, I have the thought and it passes through.

Um,

Hugo: it’s really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So is there. ongoing therapy? Uh, like was there ongoing therapy after the seven weeks?

Sarah: Yeah, so there was, and I found someone who specialized in eating disorders. And then, um, once I realized, okay, all this stuff underneath, um, I ended up moving to a different therapist and now it’s been, so I went to treatment in 2008, so I’m really bad at math, but, um,

Hugo: 15 years ago.

Sarah: Yeah. So it’s been 15 years. So, um, I don’t see, I see a therapist, but I don’t see a therapist who focuses on eating disorders. Um, she knows that I’ve had that struggle, but that’s not the, That’s not what I deal with. Um, so yeah, yeah,

Hugo: [00:32:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m just realizing now that my math, I’m, I’m still living in 2023 apparently because it’s should have said 16 years.

Sarah: That’s okay. I had no idea. So Uh,

Hugo: I’m guessing like, uh, listeners or viewers, like they, they went to the exit sign straight away and like, Oh God, I cannot trust this guy.

Sarah: You can’t even do math.

Hugo: Exactly.

Sarah: Or it makes you more human and

Hugo: vulnerable. Oh yeah. That was, yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. So, so, and the reason I ask is that like, um, Issues like that are usually, um, well, it’s hard to truly overcome issues and instead you learn to live with it and your life goes in a direction where you, it becomes a part of you, uh, if that’s, um, the right way to describe it, or at least it, it, it, it, well, it [00:33:00] changed the course of your life in a way that, that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a part of the story.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hugo: And then a follow up question is because you are now a social worker, you get to help others. How much does it help you to have experience and gone through what you’ve gone through? How much does it help you be good at what you do?

Sarah: I think it’s invaluable. Um, I think twofold one, I think being, being in the therapy seat as a therapist is so important We can get cocky on our side.

Like, Oh, I’m just asking all you these, all these questions to you and getting deep into your soul versus like being on that side is really vulnerable. And it, and so I think one, just being in therapy, um, I always recommend, even if you don’t go to ongoing therapy as a therapist, try it a couple of times, like see what it [00:34:00] feels like to be on that other side.

Um, so that I think. is one of the pieces, but two is I feel like because I’ve been through a lot of mental health and obviously eating disorder concerns. I, I understand it on like a visceral level. Um, and I’ve always been more of like an empath or a highly sensitive person. And so definitely I have to tune those Kind of that instrument because it can tend I sometimes I can’t watch shows I’m like this is stressing me out too much.

Like I’m taking in their feelings So I definitely have to tune that but one of the things that I think it helps me with is that I’ve had I work mostly with trauma now But I’ve had a lot of clients say to me like I feel like other therapists like don’t understand like they understand They tell me like, Oh, you should [00:35:00] do X, Y, and Z, but they don’t really understand what I’m going through.

And you just seem to really understand it.

Hugo: Um, yeah. Yeah. And that’s the thing, otherwise a robot could do it, well, that’s the, that’s the feeling that I have that you could just might as well just go to an online questionnaire and get the answers if you’re not able to connect on a deeper level and relate on that way, in that way,

Sarah: Yeah.

Yeah. So, and that’s why there’s like, I’m hoping that I think AI is great and there’s a lot of ways we can use AI, but I really hope I’ve heard like, Oh, can AI just be therapists? And I’m like, please no. Oh no.

Hugo: Uh,

Sarah: yeah. That’s all.

Hugo: AI. The first time it has come, uh, it’s a topic on this podcast.

sarah rollins raw file: Oh.

Sarah: I don’t know.

Hugo: Well, I get what you’re saying, though, like, like, is so it’s, it’s taken such a big, uh, jump, uh, a leap to, uh, [00:36:00] you know, 2 years ago, no one was talking about it. And suddenly we’re, we’re, we’re talking about replacing therapists with AI and it’s not even farfetched because, you know, on a basic level, it can answer questions truthfully, and it can support it with scientific studies and, and, and all of that.

Um, but yeah, that’s not a world that I would like to live in where you get to, well, there’s no connection. There’s no empathy. There’s, there’s only artificial, yeah, it’s, it’s all basically just not real.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that will be a scary day if that happens.

Hugo: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m knocking on wood that that day never comes.

sarah rollins raw file: Me too.

Hugo: Yeah. And so, all right. So it’s, we’re running, uh, we’re almost running out of time already. Um, I always like to finish the podcast with two questions. Um, one, uh, if there, well, if people want to [00:37:00] reach out to you, um, where can they do that?

Sarah: Yeah. So my website embodied wellness therapy. com, there’s a contact there and all of those go directly to me.

So, um, You can also email me at sarah at embodied wellness therapy dot com.

Hugo: Okay, great. And then is there anything I should have asked you that we didn’t discuss yet?

Sarah: Oh, I always ask that question. Now you’re turning the tables. Um, one of the things that I always say is no matter what condition or issue we’re struggling with, I’ve never seen any big, any person get better shaming themselves.

Um, and so I think no matter what, like, even if you can’t relate, Hey, I’ve never had any disorder. I’ve never struggled with anything related in that. I think the biggest thing is shame. And [00:38:00] I think a lot of us shame ourselves for our experiences. Um, I don’t care if that’s addiction, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia.

I mean, just the list goes on. It could even be. Your finances, again, just the list goes on and I’ve never seen it once. And I’ve been a social worker now, 11 years post grad and I did some work prior, but I’ll just say even post grad 11 years, I’ve never seen one person get better shaming themselves. Um,

Hugo: So what’s your advice?

Just like, it’s easy to just say, just stop shaming yourself. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So I would say get curious. You’re right. It is easy to stop shaming, right? Well, that doesn’t really work So it’s like can I get curious about the messages that i’m telling myself? Can I get curious about the comparisons? Can I get curious about when I say like Oh, what’s wrong with me?

Can I just get curious about that?

Hugo: Yeah, that’s because curiosity leads to Tough questions [00:39:00] that leads to great answers, I suppose

Sarah: Yeah All right curiosity. It doesn’t always kill the cat

Hugo: Nice. All right. Well, um, it’s been really nice having you. Um, thanks a lot for sharing your story. I’m sure there’s a few listeners out there who are like, Hey, I’ve learned something.

At least that’s, that’s what I hope that this podcast achieves. So yeah. Thanks. Thanks for, uh, thanks for your time. Um, it’s right now, it’s still early day, uh, in Detroit, right? So it’s still morning. So you’ve got a nice, uh, nice Friday ahead of you. Right. All right.

Have fun on your day and maybe see you in the next one.

sarah rollins raw file: Yeah.

Hugo: Thank you.

Well, there you have it. That was another episode of the Tracking Happiness podcast. Now, if you liked this episode, please leave a review of this podcast on the platform you’re listening to. It will really help me share these stories with more people. If you didn’t like this episode, [00:40:00] yeah, just disregard all that.

If you want to learn more about my guest, do check out any links in the notes below. Or if you want to be a guest on the podcast, please go to trackinghappiness. com slash share your story. And before you know it, you will help others overcome their own struggles of mental health. Lastly, I hope you have a great day wherever you are.

See you in the next one. Bye bye.